GGG: Your System encourages RMT and Botting.

I'm failing to see a big logic flaw here:

If slaying monsters is not actually the fun part and getting loot is, how much does buffing loot increase fun?

If the main complaint about you get to the point were slaying monsters give you a theoretical wall were you have diminishing returns on finding progressively better loot, doesn't increasing loot allow you to hit that wall faster?

It's not possible to make a smoother and longer progression curve that didn't hit the "current wall" without making more content to go through. (more items to find, more act and story levels, more ways to find power outside of items)

If we buff drop rates across the board, what does this fix? Now everyone gets stuck at level 68 maps as oppose to dom?

Also the idea that something challenging should always give something good is akin to what MMOs do (which all of you also say is bad design combing ARPGs with MMO). Unless you want bosses to have loot tables or give to tokens to turn for gear, you cannot "always" get good loot from the boss. Eventually when you farm the same boss enough, you will hit the "gear wall" because it gets increasingly more difficult to find better loot if you keep getting upgrades.

Also of course a game gets eventually boring, I have no idea why everyone expects after the first 100 hours, the game is fresh and new like playing like a new player were you are wide-eye and possibilities are endless in drops and builds.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

If the main complaint about you get to the point were slaying monsters give you a theoretical wall were you have diminishing returns on finding progressively better loot, doesn't increasing loot allow you to hit that wall faster?

It's not possible to make a smoother and longer progression curve that didn't hit the "current wall" without making more content to go through. (more items to find, more act and story levels, more ways to find power outside of items)

If we buff drop rates across the board, what does this fix? Now everyone gets stuck at level 68 maps as oppose to dom?

I fail to see how this logic applies. Do tell.

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UnderOmerta wrote:

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RagnarokChu wrote:

If the main complaint about you get to the point were slaying monsters give you a theoretical wall were you have diminishing returns on finding progressively better loot, doesn't increasing loot allow you to hit that wall faster?

It's not possible to make a smoother and longer progression curve that didn't hit the "current wall" without making more content to go through. (more items to find, more act and story levels, more ways to find power outside of items)

If we buff drop rates across the board, what does this fix? Now everyone gets stuck at level 68 maps as oppose to dom?

I fail to see how this logic applies. Do tell.

You need a simple enough model for how progression works, before anything can be said. Good luck getting anyone to agree on that.

That said, a similar point was made by a diablo 3 dev.

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syrioforel wrote:

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UnderOmerta wrote:

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RagnarokChu wrote:

If the main complaint about you get to the point were slaying monsters give you a theoretical wall were you have diminishing returns on finding progressively better loot, doesn't increasing loot allow you to hit that wall faster?

It's not possible to make a smoother and longer progression curve that didn't hit the "current wall" without making more content to go through. (more items to find, more act and story levels, more ways to find power outside of items)

If we buff drop rates across the board, what does this fix? Now everyone gets stuck at level 68 maps as oppose to dom?

I fail to see how this logic applies. Do tell.

You need a simple enough model for how progression works, before anything can be said. Good luck getting anyone to agree on that.

That said, a similar point was made by a diablo 3 dev.

Diablo 3 buffed their drops rates across the board and changed many drop rate related things and nerf monsters to make it easier for people to progress, and it still didn't fix the inherent "loot game" problem that the players claim that just increasing drop rates would do.

Which is why in D3 expansion they are just completely changing the loot system to begin with, there is no magical easy fix or change of numbers that would make the loot system as D2.

Until GGG "finishes" their game with their Act 4 expansion coming out among other possible systems that can implement in this game, we are stuck with this inherently "not as fun" system for a number of people. Changing some values does not fix inherently the complaint, which is hitting a gear wall that is feels not fun to get around, even more so when the gear wall is at the end of the current content with more being planned later.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

Diablo 3 buffed their drops rates across the board and changed many drop rate related things and nerf monsters to make it easier for people to progress, and it still didn't fix the inherent "loot game" problem that the players claim that just increasing drop rates would do.

Which is why in D3 expansion they are just completely changing the loot system to begin with, there is no magical easy fix or change of numbers that would make the loot system as D2.

Until GGG "finishes" their game with their Act 4 expansion coming out among other possible systems that can implement in this game, we are stuck with this inherently "not as fun" system for a number of people. Changing some values does not fix inherently the complaint, which is hitting a gear wall that is feels not fun to get around, even more so when the gear wall is at the end of the current content with more being planned later.

Even if D3 buffed their drops across the board, the drops were still complete shit due to AH. In fact, D3 drops were automatically adjusted depending on the economy of the AH, so drops actually got worse over time as the AH inflated

So really, this isn't proving anything

Apparently, if you played the console version of D3, it was incredibly good in regards to drops and self progression, hence why a lot of console players have a better opinion of D3 than the PC players

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RagnarokChu wrote:

Diablo 3 buffed their drops rates across the board and changed many drop rate related things and nerf monsters to make it easier for people to progress, and it still didn't fix the inherent "loot game" problem that the players claim that just increasing drop rates would do.

Which is probably where that dev post came from.

If I think of drawing a random number (say, from 1 to 1 000 000) out of a hat, and do this over and over again, keeping track of the biggest number I've pulled (a very simplistic model of having loot drop and equipping the best I can find), I'm going to rapidly hit a wall where I'm not seeing upgrades.

This (again, very simplistic) model for gear strength and gear drops may actually be fairly accurate when gear strength is determined by a small # of factors (like life, all res). Based on that, I'd agree that increasing drop rates will solve nothing.

A more drastic change (in particular, making gear more interesting) could bring more benefits to the table.

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Which is why in D3 expansion they are just completely changing the loot system to begin with, there is no magical easy fix or change of numbers that would make the loot system as D2.

Pretty much.

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deteego wrote:

Even if D3 buffed their drops across the board, the drops were still complete shit due to AH. In fact, D3 drops were automatically adjusted depending on the economy of the AH, so drops actually got worse over time as the AH inflated

I'll ask again for a source on this. Maybe one day someone will provide ;).

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Apparently, if you played the console version of D3, it was incredibly good in regards to drops and self progression, hence why a lot of console players have a better opinion of D3 than the PC players

It's probably also a game where you can get a very strong character reasonably quickly. (Cue hatred about casuals ruining everything.)

D3 is a completely different game. Its progression system is more like WoW than D2, focusing on prolonging the end-game instead of the re-roll cycle.

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syrioforel wrote:

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deteego wrote:

Even if D3 buffed their drops across the board, the drops were still complete shit due to AH. In fact, D3 drops were automatically adjusted depending on the economy of the AH, so drops actually got worse over time as the AH inflated

I'll ask again for a source on this. Maybe one day someone will provide ;).

Well this I can provide, just let me find a reference to it. Will PM it to you/edit post

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Gravethought wrote:

How does GGG make a properly rewarding and difficult fight?

They cant, because they decided to balance boss fights around spike damage, gear check and Alt-F4.

That means that in the future even more endgame bossed will be skipped, because the risk far outweights the puny vendor-trash + zero-level-uniques reward.