The Socially Awkward Gamer, the Unspoken Problems with PoE.
Good thread.
I was going to make a similar one. I have been worried about the lack of testing and how poe does not know well its (mainly forum) player base here. " The unspoken part is : -GGG does not share with us their internal discussions about gameplay. Yet we trust them. -GGG did not upload the Beta Manifesto since a long time ( Dev manifesto ?). Yet we are here just waiting for for GGG to rule the world(buy Blizzard) -GGG do not tell us about incoming content, which is translate by this: Players asking many buffs/(nerfs) for things that are not meant to be OP/(has an equal)..yet, they do not respond because either GGG is going to introduce something that is going to buff the thing you are complaining about in the next months OR something will come in game and will buff somehow the thing you think needs a buff and complaining about. Lacks of communication. Yet we accept it <=> unspoken problem. It Looks like that many previligied players (good one, mostly alpha) pm devs daily/weakly talking about the game ofc. Lyralei/moresexier?(not sure if he communicate with them)/Kripp.. Imagine they were communicating like this on forum ? What we have is small explanations on uniques/skills ( Mark/RHys/Daniel?.. ) with no real game dev discussion. " Speaking of lol, check this: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/191262/ Cool stuff. " Best support agree. ________ What GGG needs is a bigger staff. New devs who can communicate about the dev of the game, we need a dev manifesto. " Yes GGG is a small team but its playerbase is not. An excellent communication if we focus on team size only, a bad one if we focus on number of players who read forum. " I am still very curious about global gameplay changes. " Interesting. " @Wittgenstein : i had a smile reading you comment:) " Don't stop at words, what he meant is there is zero relation skill when it comes to :
Contradictions of Play Style, Planning Ahead
..Every time a major change occurs there is no precise details of the change. Everything in the patch notes are generic, the precise details have to be discovered after the patch contradicting the planning part of the game. ... but if its a major change that effects current builds I need to know the exact details. Planning ahead is a key part of the game and unless scourings/regrets become way more common... " Mark: good reads, no game development informations. Russell: communicate on art changes sometimes, cool reads. They explained to us why they "nerfed" aura graphics ( reduce lagg etc) many players raged true but there was no real anger from the players. Chris: Announcements, some important comments. Qarl: Rarely communicate, sometimes on race feedback forum some other times elsewhere. .. ____ Players want to know about game development in order to understand game changes like the one happened. I think that we need game development MANIFESTO. Anarchy/Onslaught T-Shirt Owner. Trading Guide : http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/519890 Killing Vaal merc with (600 life) : http://is.gd/qsgV9P [Open Beta] Let's be Crazy: http://is.gd/TxxLsS / Old Suggestion: http://is.gd/Jd09W0 << God blesses those who bless themselves >> Last edited by Inexium#6388 on Nov 14, 2013, 1:53:33 PM
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" Blizzard is larger than Riot but Tencent actually runs League of Legends in China. Each region is actually ran by a different company. Riot mainly does US and Europe. But all that doesn't matter, if GGG ever wants to reach the size of any of those companies, they must address some of these major issues publicly. Last edited by ApolloRoad#1246 on Nov 14, 2013, 1:58:16 PM
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" Are you for real? The fact that the player-base is half-retarded is reason enough for you to conclude all of what you wrote in your sob story? 1. Read a sentence. To quote you, read 'ONE SENTENCE' 2. Process that sentence into some conclusion 3. Use #2 and verify validity in game. 4. If 3 is not valid, spend the oh I dunnoo...ummm 5 minutes figuring it out? 5. Move on, get over it You need them to explain everything in granular detail? Dude, put your big boy pants on and figure it out for yourself. Not everything requires 100% hand holding coddling. You would have them explain the change beyond what was written, then further explain how it's still a viable gem for x y & z, oh and while we're at it GGG could explain how those using the gem are still very good gamers. Jesus Christ, it's a damn violin sonata around here. |
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If you had played closed beta you would know they're anything but socially awkward or uncommunicative. You would regularly see devs talking to players and accepting constructive feedback in chat.
But now that it isn't such a niche game and we have all these mmo kids with pent up aggression ready to spew hatred and bullshit at every given opportunity. I wouldn't want to communicate with these assholes either. You guys don't even want to hear their reasoning for anything, you want to hear what you want to hear and nothing else. Besides, anyone who didn't expect a Codt Nerf is just clueless. I knew it would be nerfed the second I first tried it. It was an oversight on ggg's part, get the fuck over it. IGN: Smegmazoid
Long live the new Flesh |
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Here is Chris's take on desync (I hope this is one of the big issues you are talking about.)
Spoiler
"Desync" is a very hot topic at the moment. At best it's a minor annoyance when it occurs and at worst it can cause characters to get killed in situations where they thought there were no monsters around. We have many changes coming that will substantially improve the situation, but would like to also explain how our synchronisation systems work in case you're interested, and to make it clear that game state synchronisation is a problem that all online games need to deal with.
In this article I'm going to try to clearly explain: How different types of online games handle latency How our system of action prediction works Why sync problems occur with this system and how they manifest Why desync has to exist and why rubber-banding is good Why some other games don't appear to have similar problems What we're planning to do to improve synchronisation How different types of online games handle latency Any game has calculations that occur to determine the result of actions. In RPGs, these can range from combat calculations (who did what damage) to important economic transactions involving game items. To prevent players cheating, it's important that these calculations are not done on the gamer's computer, because they can easily modify the result of such calculations. Because of this, all calculations that affect someone's progress must be done on servers that we control. These servers exist all over the world (Texas, Amsterdam and Singapore, currently), but due to the speed of light and other physical limitations, it's not instant to send or receive data from them. We typically see response times between our players and the servers of around 50-250ms. All online games have this situation. The server has to dictate whether things happen or not, but there's a 50-250ms delay before data gets to the server and back. There are three ways that games can solve this: Trust the client. This means people can cheat, but the results are instant. We will not do this. " Wait until data arrives back from the server before doing anything. This is a very common strategy in RTS and MOBA games. If you click to move, the unit will only start moving once the server says so, which is 50-250ms later. If you are close to the server, you'll quickly get used to the lag and everything feels pretty good. If you're far away (New Zealand, for example), it feels like you're playing drunk. Every time you issue an order, nothing happens for quarter of a second. This does not work for Action RPGs. Start predicting the result of the action as though the server said yes, immediately. When the server later gets back to you with a result, factor it in. This is what Action RPGs including Path of Exile do. It means that when you click to move, or click to attack, it occurs instantly and feels great. The problem is what happens when the server decides that the action can't have occurred - that's when the game gets badly out of sync. Action RPGs have to use the third system (action prediction) to feel responsive. The problem is, the second you start moving, you're implicitly out-of-sync by definition. Your client has drawn the first few frames of movement (to be nice and responsive), but the server has no idea you clicked a button yet until the data arrives. Action prediction is mandatory for this type of game but results in you being slightly out-of-sync almost all of the time. This is generally no problem, but once too many predictions get made based on incorrect data, very bad things happen. The challenge is detecting and correcting the situation before this occurs. How our system of action prediction works Let's say you're playing with 200ms round-trip latency and you click a monster that is 2 seconds of travel distance away from you. Assume your attack animation has its contact point after 300ms (which is where damage is dealt). 0ms: You click the monster. Your character starts running towards it on the client. 100ms: Your click arrives at the server. The character there starts running towards the monster also. At this stage your local character is already 5% of the way there. 2000ms: Your character arrives at the monster on the client. It's not there yet on the server. You don't even know if it'll ever arrive for sure (it might get interrupted by an attack still). Your client starts to animate the sword swing: 2100ms: Your character arrives at the monster on the server. The server immediately performs the combat calculation in advance of the contact point and sends the tentative result back to the client. 2200ms: You receive the notification from the server about what type of damage you will deal and roughly how much. Thankfully it arrived before the contact point of the animation! This is not always the case. 2300ms: You hit the contact point on the client. Because you have the damage information in advance, you can draw a pleasing blood splatter, fire effect and so on. This hit has not even occurred yet on the server. 2400ms: You hit the contact point on the server. The damage is locked in and actually applied to the monster. It dies. Experience and item drops are calculated and sent to the client. 2500ms: Your client receives an experience update and the information of what items to show falling to the ground. Why sync problems occur with this system and how they manifest This above example assumes that everything went smoothly. It's entirely possible for the 2 second travel time to be completely different on both ends, or for a lag spike to occur causing the timing to get completely out of sync. If the attack is interrupted on the server before it starts (during movement) but not on the client, then you have a long animation playing that can't be cancelled because the communication time is a decent length of the animation. Even if no strange lag occurs, the monsters that are nearby are pathfinding on the client to where they think you are - which by definition is different than on the server because of latency. These entities have to find paths that go around the other monsters, which of course are in subtlety different positions on both ends. The differing paths further contribute to the monsters being in the wrong place. It's worth stressing that in 99% of combat events, everything feels fine. Although the simulation is out-of-sync due to the speed of data transmission, the timing generally works out and monsters who are following weird paths get to you at roughly the right times and in roughly the right places. It's hard to really know that anything's wrong... except when it's horribly wrong. Unfortunately, when things are very out of sync, players have a pretty bad time. They take damage out of nowhere or find that they're actually trapped between monsters that didn't appear in the right places on their client. We have code to detect these situations and hopefully resync (rubber-band) the entities back into place quickly, but it's often not good enough. Why desync has to exist and why rubber-banding is good The key thing to understand is that Action RPGs have to use an action prediction system like this. If they wait for confirmation of every action from the server then it feels terrible to control. Even if our resyncing code was perfect, there would be situations where the game gets out of sync just because of tiny timing differences. Imagine you're running near a large rock, and you arbitrarily click on the other side of it. Both the client and the server attempt to find the shortest path around the rock. Because your client is ahead of the server by definition (as the movement was processed there approximately 50-250ms earlier, so that it was responsive), there are cases where the client may choose to go a different way around the rock than the server. If you were hit by a monster en-route, then your movement will be interrupted in a different place on both simulations. You are now out of sync. Intelligent resync code would detect this and rubber-band you across the rock back to where you're meant to be. The key observation here is that improved resync code involves more rubberbanding than we have at the moment. If we do it properly, monsters and players will be corrected to better positions more frequently, to prevent anything getting drastically out of place. Many players interpret the rubber-banding itself as "desync", when in reality it's what is fixing the problem as it is detected. It's not going to be easy explaining that the increased rate of rubber-banding is not only good, but also the ideal solution. Why some other games appear to not have similar problems Games using the "wait until server responds" method (RTS and MOBA games) have much higher input latency but don't have the same sync issues that we do. They have their own class of game state synchronisation problems that we thankfully don't have to deal with. Games using client action prediction like ours run into exactly the same sync issues that we do unless they cheat on certain aspects of the simulation. For example, it's common for Action RPGs to do some combination of the following: Entities can hit each other from a long distance away There's no chance to hit - all hits occur for sure Various speed/collision concessions that make it easy to speedhack and/or walk through monsters with modified clients Attack animations cannot be interrupted (i.e. what we treat as Stun). Unfortunately, we don't want to do any of those things! They each individually ruin part of the hardcore experience: by allowing combat/movement cheats, preventing accuracy from existing as a mechanic, prevent stunlock, preventing people getting blocked in, etc. Due to the fact that we want to have hardcore game mechanics (i.e. ones where position matters and it's difficult to cheat in PvP), the only option for us has been to put a lot of work into improving our combat simulation and resync code. What we're planning to do to improve synchronisation There are a lot of changes that we're experimenting with that may individually improve the synchonisation of the combat simulation (along with their potential drawbacks): Have monsters on the client attack your server location rather than client location to reduce entropy. Maybe compromise on them attacking a mid-way point between the two. The drawback here is that it means they'll appear they are swinging at the air, but they're technically more in sync. Display blood and elemental effects at the contact point on the client rather than as damage confirmation. This will mean that combat feels more impactful, but we lose the communicated visual information about whether damage was actually dealt. It could be that this is easier to apply to effects from spells because they generally don't have a hit/miss calculation. Resync entities that successfully hit you when nothing is on the client near you. This may actually pull the entity even more out-of-sync if you're in the wrong place yourself. Resync everything in an area around a desynced entity. This reduces overall entropy massively but would be pretty jarring Delay actions if the client was ahead on its path. This will solve the case where monsters die before you get to them (if you were out of sync) but technically results in lower combat efficiency for players in these cases. Improve the distance-based resyncing that occurs for things that are far away from where they should be. It doesn't currently take movement speed into account properly. This is why Rhoas feel quite out of sync when charging. Measure overall entropy around the player and force a resync if it exceeds some threshold. The problem is that by the time the resynced information gets to the client, more actions could have occured. Fix bugs with specific skills that cause them to act differently on the client and server (Whirling Blades, for example, sometimes fails to trigger based on distance on one end). At this stage it looks like the biggest gains will come from improving the resync code so that it rapidly and reliably resyncs the combat situation if things get too desynchronised. This will mean more rubber-banding (as explained earlier), but will massively reduce deaths that occur from the player not being able to see the true locations of entities. I explained the above changes with their drawbacks because I want to make it clear that this problem is intrinsically difficult to solve. We're fighting against both the laws of physics (travel speed of data) and the desire to not compromise gameplay mechanics. I have full confidence that we will incrementally deploy changes during Open Beta that substantially improve this situation. I'm sorry about the wall of text. I hope I explained it clearly enough. I am also sorry that it has taken us this long to prepare changes for this issue. We are very careful to not introduce additional problems to the combat simulation and want to make very sure that the changes we're deploying are big improvements. I will let you know as soon as we have a specific patch in mind that we'll start introducing changes in. Can't find the original right now. Dev sub-forum does no longer exist. “Demons run when a good man goes to war" Last edited by Sneakypaw#3052 on Nov 14, 2013, 2:02:38 PM
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" WWWWHHHHOOOOSSSSHHHH, that's the sound of the point going over your head. Simply put if they had given us a simple explanation behind the change the forums wouldn't be filled with OMG THEY NERF'D CWDT. I'm not complaining about the nerf but how they handle telling us that fact. They let us assume the worst, that they nerf'd it to the ground which it is not. @Sneakypaw I've read that before from Reddit. That is him explaining what Desync is and him making excuses. It def can be better than what it is not. League and DOTA and magically sync 10 people without a problem. It might never go away but it can better way better than where it is now. Last edited by ApolloRoad#1246 on Nov 14, 2013, 2:07:18 PM
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" Bullshit. You think players would have less to complain about if they had more details to work with? You think this player base is satisfied with a simple explanation irrespective of their opinions of it? You think this player base hasn't ever gone apeshit before when more detail was provided about a critical change (and by critical, I mean really critical like CI, not a gem that's been in the game for a few weeks). WWWWOOOSHHH all you want, you're a dumbass. |
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I think GGG gave it a shot with the desync explanation in their manifesto. When they realized that around 90% of the people on the forums could not even comprehend the topics they were discussing they realized it was pointless to put so much work into rationalizing their decisions.
This means people who have the ability to understand these concepts get shafted a bit, but no company takes the time to rationalize small nerfs and buffs. Heck, very few take the time to rationalize game-breaking changes to the public. |
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" Ok, Mr. Keyboard Warrior. Yes, I believe more details will lead to less complaints. No, the player base will never be satisfied but its a start. Forgive me if I have hope for the community and that not all of them just try and look for a reason to go "apeshit" over nerfs. |
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" ^ This " ^ And This. Close the thread guys. We're done here. [Hardcore] Soldiers of the Wasteland - sotwguild.com
------------------------- Skill Resets are the last refuge of the weak and incompetent. |
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