How do YOU define "pay to win"?

If I can use real money to be better at the game than someone who can't, it's pay to win.

I keep it simple like that, especially given I'm probably the sort of person who could probably be very good at a pay-to-win game.

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Quozy wrote:

More loot/xp has an impact in game = Pay to Win.

That would mean that PoE is Pay to Win. I agree.

They restricted bank space and allow you to buy as much of it as you want, and when you combine that with the vendor recipe system, which gives you more loot for being able to store more stuff to make the right combinations, its P2W by definition.

As far the definition of P2W. It actually is already defined. If you can buy anything that in any way gives your character/s an advantage, its P2W. Its pretty simple.

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CiceroSUN wrote:

Not pay to win
- buying extra stash tabs is just about convenience and saves time, so not "pay to win".
- buying boosters that increases XP gain (outside of race or pvp environments) merely saves time, so not "pay to win"
- buying full respecs is merely a convenience and saves me time, so not "pay to win"

Buying stash tabs in this game especially is P2W.
Buying boosters gives you an advantage of some sort. P2W.
Buying full respecs would be the same as a booster, possibly saving you a lot of time. P2W.

Pay to Win isn't restricted to direct effects. It never has been and never will be. The definition has been set for gamers for a long time. Some people simply refuse to see it because they like a particular game that does it and they want to defend it.

Back in the day, Free to Play was defined as offering 100% of all content *AND* features(including the inventory system) for free, with zero restrictions, and turning a profit purely on cosmetics/fluff/accountservices. It was proven to work provided you made a good game.

Then companies realized you can possibly make a little extra by distorting the F2P tag in numerous ways. GGG and PoE are just one more example of this. It is definitely not a case of "ethical microtransactions", and by basic definition, is Pay to Win.

i would agree with the point on extra stash tabs being P2W if not for the fact that everyone has unlimited stash tabs(and also char slots) due to free mule accounts

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Charan wrote:

If I can use real money to be better at the game than someone who can't, it's pay to win.

I keep it simple like that, especially given I'm probably the sort of person who could probably be very good at a pay-to-win game.

I wouldn't argue with you on that one... since you might just be about to destroy everyone at this Kiwis for Kiwi game ^^

If people are looking for these in-direct ways to label POE pay2win (more stash=more loot=more trade=more currency) its not even close to what people actually would consider pay2win.

Pay 2 win means just that, your paying for something that will...at that point in time have a greater impact on your guy then anyone else. Having extra stash space doesnt fall under that catagory.

I don't remember anymore how many stash tabs a default account comes with, Ive purchased some and have 10. I don't want to label it as pay2win, amazing how much this term is in the forum today, but I think it does give a distinct advantage. There is alot, tons, of gear and items, and variations of those same items in the game. Having the larger stash creates opportunities for comparing gear and saving up items that is a clear advantage over those without it. Let me give you some real (game)world examples:

There are almost enough skill gems, that having one of each will fill an entire tab, so just in order to keep your skill options open for the future takes a tab.

Say your in a group, we all know how hectic that can be. A boss is taken down and you snap up your loot, some yellows, maybe a rare. The player with the larger stash plunks that crap into his chest and heads back to the group to continue the quest. The player with limited stash space, already filled most likely to near full by skill gems and currency must stop and a make a decision now if hes going to keep gear or risk not being able to pick up anything else. The group most likely will not wait and he will lose his place in the progression or miss out on potential drops while mulling over his new items.

Yes, mule accounts could be made, but as someone else pointed out they will just take up potential names and do nothing for the sake of holding a few items that the player must log in and out in order to play musical stash with. The time spent doing that is time that could be spent playing, thus he falls behind, and out of any groups he was in.

I don't know what micro transactions GGG has in mind for the future, but I do think the basic stash should be larger, I'm pretty comfortable with the 10 I have, and Ive still run out of space sometimes and had to purge, it would drive me crazy to have only one. That being said, I don't have a problem with xp potions, respec points or stash tabs being sold in the shop provided players that don't have them aren't hurt by the lack. Yeah it can argued that they are pay2win, but I could argue that someone who buys special glowing angelic armor with wings is more likely to get into groups and have more friends simply because more people chat with them about said armor. Just having a mount in wow that could seat a passenger got me a ton of "new best friends" back in the day.

Almost anything that isn't purely cosmetic could be considered pay to win by someone out there. If this game is to survive GGG need to make an income so it is in all our interests to try and be reasonable about what is fair and what isn't.

Example: Paid Respecs
Paid respecs are obviously a problem, but what if it cost you a fraction of your character's level? You're level 60 and bored with your build, rerolling will take an entire long weekend. So you pay to do it and it costs you 1/3 or your level in addition to store credit. You now have a level 40 character with unspent passives.

Ok you save some orbs and some time but you pay a significant penalty that grows as you reach higher levels. No reasonable person could consider that gaining an advantage. It could also help retain players with jobs, the kind of player that we all need.

So try and be reasonable, or we may not have this game for long.

When you state "Pay to save time for convenience", there is always a threshold. When that threshold is surpassed, then it becomes pay to win. It's up to the game developers to quantify what these threshold limits ought to be.

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Confusedd wrote:

When you state "Pay to save time for convenience", there is always a threshold. When that threshold is surpassed, then it becomes pay to win. It's up to the game developers to quantify what these threshold limits ought to be.

This is the kind of sensible consideration we need.

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BlastMonkey wrote:

Paid respecs are obviously a problem, but what if it cost you a fraction of your character's level? You're level 60 and bored with your build, rerolling will take an entire long weekend. So you pay to do it and it costs you 1/3 or your level in addition to store credit. You now have a level 40 character with unspent passives.

Ok you save some orbs and some time but you pay a significant penalty that grows as you reach higher levels. No reasonable person could consider that gaining an advantage. It could also help retain players with jobs, the kind of player that we all need.

So try and be reasonable, or we may not have this game for long.

Paid respecs wouldn't be a problem if the loss in experience you're suggesting would represent as much time investment to recover as getting enough Orbs. If so: there is no point to do it...

If not: it's unfair and therefore unacceptable.