How do YOU define "pay to win"?

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Lagruell wrote:

These, Sir, are Pay to Win... at least for me ^^


A lot of players will want to compete outside of races (be among the firsts to reach level 100 on SC/HC default leagues)


If you can buy any fraction of the time it takes for your char to reach any level, it's Pay to Win.


Being able to fully respec your character at no ingame cost/time investment makes it potentially good on any map/content, and you got an edge to complete any map/dungeon/boss faster, it's Pay to Win.

Because of the way you play it, yes. And if the game for me is about looking as awesome as possible, then any purchasing of cosmetic items, would be P2W, right?

This is part of the reason the discussion is complicated. People play games differently, so therefor what they consider winning is different. In the end only GGG can decide on what they want, but they will be hard pressed for revenue if they only sell items with no impact on the game whatsoever. Seeing as they already have stash tabs, I guess they are already open to game impact items in the shop?
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Zalm wrote:
Valid point Ray......its not exactly direct, but again.....if you noticed, they have been changing recipes and such in order to make them more difficult to obtain, making it more on par with just finding them. You COULD just save a bunch of crap gear and sell it for certain orbs....but it would take just about as long as just finding the orbs themselves.

I still dont think Stash tabs alone are pay to win, not like exp and passive resets, but Each person is entitled to their own opinion, and its based on the idea of an interpretation of the phrase Pay To Win. I think Pay to Win is something that affect directly, other feel like its any kind of char affect that isnt solely cosmetic. This game in its heart is still never going to be pay to win, like other games out there(MapleStory, D3, WoW)



yeah I agree. Don't think stash tabs should be considered pay to win. I admit I haven't been paying much attention to the issue raised with crafting and stash tabs but I just fail to see how that really gives a player the ability to "win" over a player with only the default tabs. I mean having extra tabs doesn't automatically make you a good player with good gear and a good build. it just makes one aspect of farming a little easier from what it sounds like and that advantage from what I understand is so minimal its basically a non issue.


xp boosts and things like that i do agree would not be good for the competitive side of this game but I don't think they are bad for all games for example Guild Wars 2. The way GW2 is designed, the xp boosts, in my opinion don't have a negative affect on the balance of the game. Or consider graphical changes. In PoE a different armor dyes would not be a problem, but in an FPS game the color of your outfit could make you hard to see and give a the buyer an unfair advantage and in this instance be considered pay to win. So approaching this with a purely black and white perspective I think is wrong. Its really all about how it will affect the game not if its just "pay to win". Stash tabs could be considered pay to win if implemented in the wrong way, in this situation though I thinks its fine.
Always play it in the key of G demolished
"Skill will make up for lack of gear long before gear makes up for lack of skill."
Last edited by derbefrier on December 16, 2012 9:33 PM
@Cicero

Perhaps....but I think the way they set it up, is they are ok with small impacts, such as stash tabs. I understand where you come from on this one. For some, the wining on this game is clearing the content(for some quickly, for some thoroughly) and so getting levels would be pay to win becuase you level faster, thus clear end game content sooner. For others, it all about amassing wealth, so having stash tabs would allow for more wealth, thus winning bigger and better, making stash tabs P2W.

It all dwindles down to what I said earlier.

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Zalm wrote:
Each person is entitled to their own opinion, and its based on the idea of an interpretation of the phrase Pay To Win.


Its also dependent on how you play the game. Winning for you might be out of gear, while for me its going to be out of levels. Though you might have to make more of a compromise to the idea of P2W here...at least you have that chance/choice, while I dont have one at all. You CAN P2W, but I cant. If anything, I should be the one screaming that its unfair.
'It is good to contact a moderator if you feel someone is being a twat' Charan, Forum Moderator

Sometimes, we have to cross a ditch.
Sometimes, we have to cross an ocean.-Rhys, GGG
Last edited by Zalm on December 16, 2012 9:30 PM
On a more general note regarding the overall discussion, think about this.

"Pay to win" is often seen as the opposite to "requiring skill to win". Any gamer with some selvrespect would argue that the best player should win, right?

But for some reason people never talk about "grind to win" or "spend time to win". Again seeing it in opposition to "requiring skill to win".

If I am a player with great gaming skills, but I get owned by someone who has been playing the game for 500+ hours and has better gear (this is very much a gear based game), should I be whining as much about that? Playing 1000+ hours obviously has a tendency to also make people skilled, but many will never be as skilled as others.

Why is "paying to win" any different from "grinding/spending time to win", when looking at the two as opposed to "requiring skill to win"?
Pay to win is simple: if two players of equal skill level are matched together and are put head to head then their win rate comes down to a random factor and if you ran a simulation the chance of either winning is 50%:50%. Now if the CS player has access to items that would tip the chance in his favor but the free player does not have access, then it's P2W. If every item in the CS is tradeable then the game becomes less P2W. Also I do not consider exp boost items p2w as these items are accessible to everybody and the only factor becomes time. In this game though since the level cap is so high these things never really even out.
Stash tabs are not P2W, if you want more stash tabs, create mule accounts. Stash tabs are convenience, nothing more.
If you need to use hyperbole to make a point, you only admit that your point is too weak to stand on its own.
Since they changed the vendor recipe for alchs and regals. I don't consider them to be pay2win. Hell, I have 45 pages and won't even bother matching anymore. the amount of effort it would take is so much, that I have better.odds of finding something in that timespan.
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Completed 2 ChallengesXavderion wrote:
Stash tabs are not P2W, if you want more stash tabs, create mule accounts. Stash tabs are convenience, nothing more.


I think this is one of the leading reasons they made stash tabs purchasable. Alotta people might make mule accounts, and those would be doing nothing, just taking up space on the server.
'It is good to contact a moderator if you feel someone is being a twat' Charan, Forum Moderator

Sometimes, we have to cross a ditch.
Sometimes, we have to cross an ocean.-Rhys, GGG
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Buying stash tabs in this game especially is P2W.



Unless mules do not suffice, it is merely a quality of life purchase.



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CiceroSUN wrote:
Because of the way you play it, yes. And if the game for me is about looking as awesome as possible, then any purchasing of cosmetic items, would be P2W, right?



I believe that for most players: "Pay to Win" is merely about unfairly overcoming some challenge in the game before others.


Seriously, aren't cosmetics kind of off topic?
>>> The KIWI called... they want their money, bro. \\ www.kiwisforkiwi.org <<<
If your using the cash shop to save time in game by buying xp then yes I would consider that P2W. Its a distinct advantage that real money gives you over other players. I don't think the argument of convenience is valid in this case.
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