Accuracy – The Last Remnant of Action?

A flask mod which refill x charge on miss would give some incentive to minimize accuracy.

Speaking of the concept accuracy, it's just another way to increase your damage output (like damage, attack speed, crit rate) but with different properties. It's true that at the moment, in PoE, we can't really make profit of the proporties of accuracy, this is the actual issue. Some new things like my first suggestion or the bonus on hit streak said in konfeta's post could solve this.

Also, I don't like the "no animation" animation for miss, I want a miss animation. Otherwise it's looks like the game is bugged, it's even more frustrating. Same for block and crit, I want to see them.

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shadowtwin wrote:

Isn't this true in exactly the same way for increased damage with a weapon type, increased attack speed, and increased melee damage?

That IS the point, exactly the point i try to explain.

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konfeta wrote:

The onus of difficulty in an ARPG lies in monster design and combat, not character building.

You know konfeta, with these words the argument had already got quite lowered, and should have you embarrased i fear. These words could only come forth from anyone who started playing RPGs the day before.

nermind had explained all the necessary reasons with details why it is a must to keep accuracy.
But if someone does not want to believe then there is no single way he/she could survive, you know, even yourself can not help.

Removing accuracy would be taking a whole dynamic out of the game.. which would be a HUGE step backwords. There should be no argument here. Every good RPG has a chance to hit and a chance to miss. Get better gear, learn the passive skill tree and build around a skill.

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Okay, so lets make the game easier, because its already easy. Another great argument.

Where the hell did I say I wanted the game to be easier? Why are you equating "remove an obnoxious mechanic" with "desire to simplify the game's character building aspect?" Why are you ignoring the actual argument I am presenting against accuracy as a mechanic?

To make it simple for you - I want PoE to become far more difficult than it is right now. I want it to become more complex than it is right now. I want it to expand both on the action spectrum so it isn't mindless Diablo clone combat; I want it to expand on the character building spectrum so that decision making doesn't boil down to "optimize the ever living light out of a single skill." But, I want both of those things to happen without obnoxious mechanics hitching a ride along the way.

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I think I'm getting it - youre not happy that your min-max approach that normally works for you isn't working in PoE?

In every ARPG I play, I optimize accuracy to the maximum reasonably allowed level to eliminate missing. Again, I don't "not get accuracy and QQ taht I don't hit things" - I avoid the situation in the first place and point out how inane the concept is in my eyes.

You were given the difference between offensive categories of accuracy and damage. If you don't understand them, ask for elaboration, preferably by saying how you interpreted the given argument. Otherwise, don't patronize.

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Still glancing blows just sounds like varying Armor, only making less differences between classes, and making Duelist some double-armored freak (= I find that less fun.

All three defensive mechanisms are just variation on the idea of damage mitigation, all suffer from redundancy of concept. Evasion is just a chance to have 100% damage reduction. Uniqueness is hardly an excuse to keep a miserable mechanic in the game. There needs to be a balance between it and practicality. Furthermore, pure dodge can still be retained in the game. Just not as a primary combat mechanic inflicted on physical damage at the core.

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You know konfeta, with these words the argument had already got quite lowered, and should have you embarrased i fear. These words could only come forth from anyone who started playing RPGs the day before.

Or, you know, these words come from someone who is disappointed that the ARPG genre failed to evolve since Diablo 1 came out.

But hey, brick simple combat that is largely won by character build choices, than you know, player actions in combat, is fine because basic arithmetic is apparently the apex of difficulty.

My position is fairly simple - you can have an ARPG that is wondrous in build variety and complexity while simultaneously not killing off brain cells with repetition while you actually play the game. Accuracy, as is in current format, not conductive to either branches of the ARPG.


P.S.

Oooh, a Chris post. A modest request - could you guys give a developer's perspective on why you want to keep accuracy in the game and what function you want it to retain in terms of build variety and combat quality? If not in this thread, at least in the patch notes where you detail and explain the accuracy changes?

Dis statement is farily nebulous: that accuracy is more relevant in the places we want it to be useful at high levels.

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Where the hell did I say I wanted the game to be easier? Why are you equating "remove an obnoxious mechanic" with "desire to simplify the game's character building aspect?" Why are you ignoring the actual argument I am presenting against accuracy as a mechanic?

To make it simple for you - I want PoE to become far more difficult than it is right now. I want it to become more complex than it is right now. I want it to expand both on the action spectrum so it isn't mindless Diablo clone combat; I want it to expand on the character building spectrum so that decision making doesn't boil down to "optimize the ever living light out of a single skill." But, I want both of those things to happen without obnoxious mechanics hitching a ride along the way.

Okay in that case let me rephrase: "Lets make it more difficult by making it easier". Yes that sounds much better, right?

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In every ARPG I play, I optimize accuracy to the maximum reasonably allowed level to eliminate missing. Again, I don't "not get accuracy and QQ taht I don't hit things" - I avoid the situation in the first place and point out how inane the concept is in my eyes.

You were given the difference between offensive categories of accuracy and damage. If you don't understand them, ask for elaboration, preferably by saying how you interpreted the given argument. Otherwise, don't patronize.

No need to elaborate, thank you. I believe I explained that both (accuracy and damage) are completely based on your choice (instead of what you try to say) and lead to either increasing or decreasing combat effectivity. Is that clear enough?

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All three defensive mechanisms are just variation on the idea of damage mitigation, all suffer from redundancy of concept. Evasion is just a chance to have 100% damage reduction. Uniqueness is hardly an excuse to keep a miserable mechanic in the game. There needs to be a balance between it and practicality. Furthermore, pure dodge can still be retained in the game. Just not as a primary combat mechanic inflicted on physical damage at the core.

So instead of having mechanics that are as similar as being "defensive" (I wont comment on that "similarity"), you suggest to actually make them almost the same. Thats another great argument I guess.



Well none of what you says really proves that accuracy is the one evil element that is not needed in Path of Exile (more like the opposite).

You say its random. But surprise, this is an RPG (yes those letters after "A" matter) - EVERYTHING is random, from damage rolls to critical strikes, and the loot (no there will be no medical kits and weapons placed in the same spot on map every time). I mean, I'm such a skilled player but I have to rely on some RNG to even strike a critical or get a rare item? That makes no sense right, I'm supposed to crit for max damage every time and loot only rares and orbs. Yes, that sounds like a game for me. No I don't want to optimize or plan anything to do that, I'm too skilled for that. Perfect.

Then youre saying that you don't want repetitivness. Bad news, ARPG is the kind of game you'll be killing that crab for thousands and thousands of times, if you want to get anywhere.

I really don't know what kind of game you want to play but that is not what PoE is going to be. From what youre saying you don't want it to have anything common with Diablo 2, but they (will) have so much common. It cannot be a game that has anything to do with RPG genre, since its so deeply based on random rolls and is "killing off brain cells with repetition".

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Okay in that case let me rephrase: "Lets make it more difficult by making it easier". Yes that sounds much better, right?

Is it really necessary to put a disclaimer that for any change that affects the balance of the game it is to be compensated in some other fashion?

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I believe I explained that both (accuracy and damage) are completely based on your choice (instead of what you try to say) and lead to either increasing or decreasing combat effectivity. Is that clear enough?

What you explained was a simplified repetition of what I said with a serving of ignoring the focus of my argument against accuracy. You didn't even bother to try to address why you disagree with the idea that reducing accuracy has significant enough differences with reducing damage.

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So instead of having mechanics that are as similar as being "defensive" (I wont comment on that "similarity"), you suggest to actually make them almost the same. Thats another great argument I guess.

It doesn't have to be fully symmetric. You can have monsters use a different rule for their armor class, i.e. "glancing blows," while retaining evasion or glancing blows + full dodge for player armor if it is that important.

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RNG Strawman Paragraph

Not every random event is created equal. Damage rolls are one thing. Item drops are a different thing. There is even a substantial difference between critical strikes and misses. The former are a momentum building random event, the latter are a momentum stopping random event. Something like a critical hit is a moment of high, something like a miss is a moment of low. I am arguing that a total miss, a total arbitrary negation of a player action is a crap element for a game to have to deal with on constant basis. The possibility to optimize out of having to deal with it becomes a frustration avoiding requirement to do so. It doesn't feel like a genuine character building choice even in the family of damage increasing stats (damage, attack speed).

Again, I am not arguing for elimination of the dice element. Drop this blatant strawman. I am arguing for removal of very specific random element that clashes with the most with concept of player input driven combat, which is the action component of the ARPG.

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Bad news, ARPG is the kind of game you'll be killing that crab for thousands and thousands of times, if you want to get anywhere.

I am not against the kind of game where you kill the crab a billion of times. I am not against the kind of game that is grind centric in nature.

What I am against is the refusal to introduce variety, challenge, and removal of frustrating mechanics in the process of the grind. What I am for is to allow greater emphasis in player agency in combat. Accuracy under the current design does not contribute to that concept.

Let's do a wrap up check before this "debate" goes fully cyclical and we keep writing what the other person isn't even bothering to read.
- Are you actually interested in reading about and discussing the viewpoint that accuracy is contradictory with making the transition from Role-Playing-Game to Action-Role-Playing-Game?
- Are you willing to accept the desire for appearance of an ARPG with higher complexity/depth of combat?
- Are you willing to entertain the thought that this game might be better off without reliance on THAC0 as one of its primary PvE combat mechanics? That this game can still be the premier ARPG with bolded, capitalized R, P, G despite eliminating, or simply even changing, accuracy as it currently is?

I wont comment on the first part since its once again "Accuracy is different because I don't like it" kind of stuff as before.

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konfeta wrote:

Let's do a wrap up check before this "debate" goes fully cyclical and we keep writing what the other person isn't even bothering to read.
- Are you actually interested in reading about and discussing the viewpoint that accuracy is contradictory with making the transition from Role-Playing-Game to Action-Role-Playing-Game?
- Are you willing to accept the desire for appearance of an ARPG with higher complexity/depth of combat?
- Are you willing to entertain the thought that this game might be better off without reliance on THAC0 as one of its primary PvE combat mechanics? That this game can still be the premier ARPG with bolded, capitalized R, P, G despite eliminating, or simply even changing, accuracy as it currently is?

1) You can probably guess the answer if I tell you that I've never had any problems with accuracy as a perfectly fine part of ARPG's. Noone I know had any problems, as I've never heared this version of ARPG as a "non-Accuracy-Role-Playing-Game". I always thought its an RPG with much less focus on story, quests and dialogues as much there is focus on combat (and accuracy is a part of combat in rpg's, you know), character building and treasure hunting. Must be just a rumour.

2) Oh yes, which is what I'm telling you here all along. Much of this complexity doesn't have to be reinvented as youre trying to persuade others though, because of your personal preferences.

3) As long as it would make the game better. So far there hasn't been a single argument that would convince me. Quite the opposite.

I realize that 75% plus of this board is probably mages but I cant get why people think its fair that it seems like every enemy in this game can evade but only a certain few can resist spells. This allows spellcasters to grind levels much higher than thier current level and leaves physical based skills at a disadvantage. Can someone at GGG explain how this is a fair mechanic balanced between casters and physical damage characters?

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I wont comment on the first part since its once again "Accuracy is different because I don't like it" kind of stuff as before.

Well, so much for an attempt at conversation. If you refuse to even put effort into the act of examining why the gameplay mechanics of accuracy are different, any discussion with you on the subject is pointless.