Accuracy – The Last Remnant of Action?

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zeto wrote:

Did you read the first few pages of this thread?

Anyway, you say that evasion is fine by accuracy is not... uhh, they sorta go together. what do you mean that accuracy and evasion don't go together?

Spells not having accuracy was an iffy move by them... Projectiles have a system of accuracy built in that you can dodge, so that's fine, but area effects and aura's hitting 100% of the time to me is indeed iffy.

Projectiles have a built-in mechanism that you can dodge, yes. Thing is you can't dodge a wave of 7 arrows shooting 6 times a second. Not only that, but arrows and wand blasts move really damn fast (I think arrows move faster than wands too), which makes it hard to dodge even if it was just 1 arrow shooting per second in a line.

Shooting a target from X meters away is hard and takes accuracy. Shooting a moving target at the same distance becomes much harder — I don't think moving targets is sufficient justification of removing accuracy (at least talking about realism. If ranged is too weak in the GAMEPLAY then obviously accuracy should be loosened or removed for it)

And like I said in my previous message addressing you: accuracy and evasion are not related at the moment. Evasion is just the physical damage mitigation that dexterity users have — equivalent to armor (tying accuracy to evasion would mess that up).

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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Xapti wrote:

And like I said in my previous message addressing you: accuracy and evasion are not related at the moment. Evasion is just the physical damage mitigation that dexterity users have — equivalent to armor (tying accuracy to evasion would mess that up).

Yes they are - the chance to hit of an attack is calculated using the attacker's accuracy, the defender's evasion, and both of their levels.
There's a new formula for 0.9.3 which no longer cares about levels, but chance to hit is still a function of both attacker accuracy and defender evasion.

I am aware that both accuracy and evasion give chances to miss, I hope you aren't misunderstanding me.

You're saying something like if Player A has 95% chance to hit, and player B and 75% chance to evade, and they are the same levels that player A will have 95% chance to hit player B and player B has 5% chance of evading? (or) Player A has a 25% chance to hit player B and 75% chance of evading? Or maybe something weird like 60% chance of hitting?

I always thought it was .75 * .95 (around 71%) — which would be UNLINKED, since they are completely separate. No matter how good one's accuracy is, they still won't hit against someone with high evasion well for instance.

As far as I understood it, evasion and accuracy, while both affecting chance to hit, are not actually LINKED. That was an incorrect belief?

The character sheet accuracy figure is calculated against a hypothetical enemy of your level with a certain assumed evasion number. The evasion figure is similarly calculated vs a hypothetical enemy.

So both figures are not hard numbers but estimations assuming a certain enemy.

Against an actual enemy, the calculation pits a real accuracy against a real evasion, and thus the attackers chance to hit would be exactly inverse to the defenders chance to evade. So if attacker at X accuracy has 75% chance to hit vs defender with Y evasion, the defender has only 25% evasion vs X accuracy, even though the character sheet might say they have 70% evasion (calculated vs some hypothetical monster accuracy).

(I think)

I just thought I'd come back now that I have some experience with Accuracy.

I tend to agree that the current numbers work out to needing too many Accuracy nodes. Partially in response to this thread, I made a high-Accuracy character, starting down the Accuracy line and grabbing a lot of the things.

I have 6 Accuracy Rating nodes (total +644), 2 Accuracy Percentage nodes (total +15%), 3 Claw Damage and Accuracy nodes (total +263), and a Claw Damage and Accuracy Percentage node (+3%). That is 14 Accuracy-boosting nodes, on a level 24 character (I also got 5 of the Frenzy nodes and 5 miscellaneous nodes on the way to the Accuracy nodes listed).

I also have Accuracy boosts on both rings, and on one weapon (total +248).

My chance to hit is 93%. Now, I'm not having any Accuracy-related problems (93% is quite high), but 14/24 nodes devoted to Accuracy seems like a lot to be losing ground compared to level-appropriate monsters. Especially since I am running out of Accuracy nodes to take.

Had I avoided the 5 Frenzy nodes, I could grab two Accuracy Rating nodes (total +225), and another Claw Damage and Accuracy Percentage node (+5%). That would probably be enough to hit 95%, but that would be literally taking every Accuracy node available at my level.

A Marauder, meanwhile, doesn't even have as many Accuracy nodes to take, even if he wants to. He can go down the Dex-based Accuracy line well enough to begin with (but suffers for it thanks to getting less Dex than a Duelist or Ranger would, and not getting the Str he needs/earned by virtue of being a Marauder), but if I only had the 9 Accuracy nodes in a row that you can get down that line, my chance to hit would be that much lower.

I don't agree with wyldmage that Accuracy needs to be removed, at all. I really don't agree with his reasons, either. However, I do agree that there is a problem with the numbers as they currently stand.

So accuracy is indeed another blow against evasion in it's current state?

Nice.

If you're wondering what I mean, accuracy reduces the effectiveness of evasion.
What reduces the effectiveness of armour or energy shield?
If the answer is 'more damage' then that still screws the evasion dependent over. Hence we get the one shot scenario we have now.

Hoping the redesign works out. ^^

On topic, I do dislike accuracy, if only because it penalizes the seemingly weaker weapon orientated characters, while the strong caster aoe carries on regardless.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

aimlessgun pretty much has it. You don't have a set 'chance to hit', you have an accuracy rating. Your chance to hit any specific monster is a function calculated your accuracy, that monsters evasion and both of your levels.
They are not calculated separately, there is one calculate for chance to hit and both of them affect it.

The 'chance to hit' shown in the character screen is an estimate against an average monster of your level, calculated based on an estimate of how much evasion such a monster would have, but individual monsters may have more/less evasion than the average, based on how aligned with dex they are.

I guess this isn't too surprising (considering that's Diablo's system), but considering how things seemed to be described in the game, I never thought this. OK so as far as I understand, that means that "chance to hit" and "chance to evade" are completely inaccurate and essentially meaningless stats on the character sheet, since some targets may have some evasion, some may have none (at least with regards to PvP).
Doesn't it also mean that evasion is worse than armor (ignoring the spikiness of evasion), since armor always reduces damage while evasion can be partially countered by accuracy? or is that flawed reasoning?

Does someone have the specific formula? Malice showed one formula on the Mechanics page, and another (incomplete) one here. At equal levels, would a low accuracy attacker have 95% hit chance vs someone with no evasion?

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DragoonWraith wrote:

A Marauder, meanwhile, doesn't even have as many Accuracy nodes to take, even if he wants to. He can go down the Dex-based Accuracy line well enough to begin with (but suffers for it thanks to getting less Dex than a Duelist or Ranger would, and not getting the Str he needs/earned by virtue of being a Marauder

Due to the broken system of getting stats as a hybrid class at the moment, your statement is flawed.

A marauder putting 80% of his points into str and 20% of his points into dex will wind up with the same amount of dex as a duelist, but with more strength than a duelist.
Marauder/primary_class only loses this advantage when 50% or more of their points are put off their main attribute (at which point they could in theory switch to the other primary class, which in the case of duelist vs marauder, would be ranger)

I presume they will fix this in 0.93. That said, there are two other conflicting issues as well that complicate the balance (armor/evasion/ES mods which hybrids also lose at, and max charges which hybrids kinda win at (IMO) but still a trade-off)

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eSpyre wrote:

So accuracy is indeed another blow against evasion in it's current state?

Nice.

If you're wondering what I mean, accuracy reduces the effectiveness of evasion.
What reduces the effectiveness of armour or energy shield?
If the answer is 'more damage' then that still screws the evasion dependent over. Hence we get the one shot scenario we have now.

Hoping the redesign works out. ^^

On topic, I do dislike accuracy, if only because it penalizes the seemingly weaker weapon orientated characters, while the strong caster aoe carries on regardless.

Malice talked about this a lot on the alpha forums and possibly around here too... for this exact reason he proposed adding something to counter armor. (chaos damage already bypasses ES)

@Xapti: the % value you see given your level will always give you a relative guideline of how you will fare against a similarly powerful opponent, PvP or not. Part of this is being able to tell, by trial and error and knowledge, if your target has high evasion or low and then how to counter it.

How this plays out in 9.3 is still very much up for grabs.

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Xapti wrote:

A marauder putting 80% of his points into str and 20% of his points into dex will wind up with the same amount of dex as a duelist, but with more strength than a duelist.
Marauder/primary_class only loses this advantage when 50% or more of their points are put off their main attribute (at which point they could in theory switch to the other primary class, which in the case of duelist vs marauder, would be ranger)

It's not that simple, if you want to use mostly str passives (for the passives, not the attribute) and you need some dex (the attribute, not necessarily the passives), your best option is the duelist. Because with the marauder, you wouldn't have enough dex, and with the ranger you'd waste your points (since you take mostly str passives)