Accuracy – The Last Remnant of Action?

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DragoonWraith wrote:

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wyldmage wrote:

On my Witch, I run 1 Life Flask, 1 Vial, and 3 Mana Flasks. I have never ran out, even 1 on 1 with a boss.

I... I know. That's what I said. The numbers are off. You need to get Accuracy nodes too often, and don't need to get Mana nodes often enough. They need tweaking. It's a beta, that's not surprising.

But that doesn't meant that Accuracy has to go wholesale.

And again, I'm not saying it doesn't — just that your arguments why it does are not convincing me.

1) I don't like accuracy as a mechanic due to "miss streaks". Unless it's a system where you can reasonably maintain a 100% hit chance (or at least 98-99%), it has the potential to frustrate.

2) I REALLY don't like a mechanic that so dramatically decreases in effect each level (1%/level on average for 40 levels). This part though the fix GGG has lined up sounds like it addresses.

3) There should not be any 1 stat that you must take. Currently there are two. Accuracy in skills and Increased Physical Damage (Percent) on your weapon. Building a dps character without any Accuracy should be viable (that is, 75% or more of the damage output of a character with Accuracy). Not saying it should reach competetive optimization, but you should be *allowed* to do it.
3b) IPD(P) on weapons needs nerfing so that it isn't the #1 end-all in mod choices.

4) Likewise, Witches should not *require* mana nodes. Making another thread on the subject of mana though here:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/9365

I think this is all a difference of perspective. I see nothing different between.

a. forcing tanks to pick health/armor passives, or else, be a horrible tank.

b. forcing players to invest in accuracy, or else, be horrible in general.

I am fine with the system being re-worked (and it already is, and you'll see this in 0.9.3).

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teh_axi wrote:

If you are a physical damage character then accuracy is the best stat you can have for damage until you reach 100% or diminishing returns makes too expensive compared to alternatives

You pretty much solved the problem in your own post... optimal builds will attempt to achieve a maximized output by determining when the diminishing returns of accuracy prompt a switch to some other mechanic of dealing damage.

This is one of the cores of character building.

As for your further comment about living with miss streaks... welcome to probability :P In exchange for missing they will probably get spectacular displays of damage output when they do hit... such that optimal builds with misses will deal similar damage (probably more) to optimal builds without misses (mostly magic)

Misses also put into play tactical playing of the odds.. small amounts of gambling. At 90% and a couple hits to go but almost dead yourself... do you run and try something else? or do you stay and try your luck? These are choices and dynamics, particularly in PvP that are possible due to accuracy, and not possible without it.

Oh boy, accuracy in PvP.

There's going to be variance in a game like this, it's unavoidable. But something as insanely high variance as accuracy is just awful for competitive PvP.

I'd rather not get into a debate about it until I actually do some PvP in this game. But in my my past PvP experiences, high variance RNG events that shaped the outcome of battles left extremely sour tastes, because it shoves luck too far into the outcome.

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aimlessgun wrote:

Oh boy, accuracy in PvP.

There's going to be variance in a game like this, it's unavoidable. But something as insanely high variance as accuracy is just awful for competitive PvP.

I'd rather not get into a debate about it until I actually do some PvP in this game. But in my my past PvP experiences, high variance RNG events that shaped the outcome of battles left extremely sour tastes, because it shoves luck too far into the outcome.

Most PvPers will optimize their builds to minimize these things though.

If you expect that optimal PvP builds will be the same as optimal PvE builds.. yeah that won't be the case (I don't think you actually expect this)

The question becomes, how much accuracy is needed to minimize misses on a high evasion opponent? Can you avoid PvPing evasion opponents to begin with?

I think accuracy is a dumb concept for fast-paced action games like this. Accuracy doesn't make any sense. Accuracy is for pen and paper games where you roll dice... or maybe MMOs.

For action games I'm fine with stuff like blocking (or even evasion) but when you add accuracy to that, it just goes too far. I think its pretty lame that spells do not use accuracy, even though attacks do. While it doesn't make too much sense for spells to use accuracy, I'd say that it makes just as much if not less sense for accuracy to be necessary for melee. The only thing accuracy makes sense for (at least realistically) is ranged attacks (bows and wands).

Considering bow users are pretty much the strongest (or one of the strongest) builds possible now, it would make sense to keep accuracy for them (granted I know everything's going to be changed in the coming patch, so obviously one should wait before performing changes)

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zeto wrote:

The question becomes, how much accuracy is needed to minimize misses on a high evasion opponent? Can you avoid PvPing evasion opponents to begin with?

Were you talking about some hypothetical/proposed accuracy system? cause right now evasion isn't tied to accuracy.

Did you read the first few pages of this thread?

Anyway, you say that evasion is fine by accuracy is not... uhh, they sorta go together. what do you mean that accuracy and evasion don't go together?

Spells not having accuracy was an iffy move by them... Projectiles have a system of accuracy built in that you can dodge, so that's fine, but area effects and aura's hitting 100% of the time to me is indeed iffy.

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zeto wrote:

The question becomes, how much accuracy is needed to minimize misses on a high evasion opponent? Can you avoid PvPing evasion opponents to begin with?

But the outcome remains incredibly high variance! If you miss, you do no damage, and apply no status effects (as opposed to something like weapon damage ranger, where it's just a larger or smaller hit). So even if you get to 95% hit, you've got a situation where say in critical situations when your glacial hammer has to hit and slow a guy, you lose due to bad luck 5% of the time.

I'd be fine with it if you could actually build your character to eliminate misses entirely, but that is not the case in PoE.

EDIT: Thinking about it, due to how crits in this game are tied to the elemental effects on top of their possibly very high damage multipliers, crits are also incredibly high variance. PvP testing is going to be interesting....

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aimlessgun wrote:

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zeto wrote:

The question becomes, how much accuracy is needed to minimize misses on a high evasion opponent? Can you avoid PvPing evasion opponents to begin with?

But the outcome remains incredibly high variance! If you miss, you do no damage, and apply no status effects (as opposed to something like weapon damage ranger, where it's just a larger or smaller hit). So even if you get to 95% hit, you've got a situation where in critical situations where your glacial hammer has to hit and slow a guy, you lose due to bad luck 5% of the time.

I'd be fine with it if you could actually build your character to eliminate misses entirely, but that is not the case in PoE.

Do you really think that the total sum of the situation is often going to be: my 95% to hit caused me to lose cuz I couldn't hit the guy?

I just don't see that as plausible, and will have to see when PvP emerges. With the current mechanics melee hitters are going to get stomped by ranged, and particularly casters. I see PvP balance a long time coming.

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zeto wrote:

Do you really think that the total sum of the situation is often going to be: my 95% to hit caused me to lose cuz I couldn't hit the guy?

The takeaway is that you did everything you could to make sure you hit the guy, but bad luck screwed you over anyways, since the game didn't allow you to eliminate luck from the equation.

As I said there's variance/luck in other stuff. But the gap between a hit and a miss is especially large, large enough to singlehandedly decide a contest (in my previous pvp experience, unwisely projected onto future PoE pvp).

Though as I edited into my post earlier, frost crits in PoE potentially have that crazy level of variance (since the crit applies the freeze CC as well as additional damage). I can see luck being a disproportionately large factor for frost witches when they fight people.

But this is getting into a discussion over how much luck is acceptable if PvP is to be taken at all seriously, which is a whole other long and arduous argument :D