Accuracy – The Last Remnant of Action?

Yes, I definitely agree that accuracy is really only a frustrating mechanic. Naturally you get weaker as you level and are at a disadvantage against higher level foes, adding a increased level of luck on top of that is just annoying.

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1) Not everything is a reaction to game mechanics. If I choose to play a Ranger, that is not a reaction to game mechanics. If I kite the mobs, that is not a reaction to game mechanics. If I choose +4% attack speed over +5% projectile damage, that is not a reaction to game mechanics.
Each of those issues is a choice that I'm making to create and play a character the way I want to. When the game says "but because you didn't make the character how WE want you to, you are now worse".

Its not a reaction to game mechanics if you close your eyes and blindly pick a skill by randomly clicking on you skill tree.
Otherwise youre taking into account what each of those choices will bring - and that is based on game mechanics. People can be better or worse at building a character, thus its a skill.

If "the way I want to" means doing first thing that comes to mind and not planning ahead, then yes - its not a reaction to game mechanics. But I'd never play like that, and I know most people don't.

In a game where you would have no wrong choices possible, you would actually be playing like the developers want you to. Luckily with the freedom of customisation PoE wants to offer that will never be the case.

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Taking more damage feels like "these monsters are higher level, they hit harder", while missing more feels like "I got worse".

No. For me: missing more against a higher level means his tougher and harder to hit. Same thing exactly.

Its just the way you think about it that makes you dislike accuracy, not that theres a problem with mechanic.

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3) I used monster hp as the generic, easy to understand example of how to balance out changes or how to compare two different situations. Everyone understands effective hp and dps. And how is "you miss 10% of the time" any MORE enjoyable than "monsters take 11% longer to kill"?
Sure, tougher monsters to compensate for removing accuracy isn't interesting. But neither is whiff whiff whiff.

My main point was that youre suggesting to replace something affected by player (accuracy) with something that player cannot affect (monster hp). THAT I find really unfun.

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4) What is the difference between a Critial Rate and a Miss Rate? Level of reward. If you played this game starting at a 5% chance to hit and worked your way up (but it didn't decrease each level), it would feel BETTER than it does right now. You'd be noticing the "lucky streaks" where you hit 5 times in a row as you got to 10%. The same logic applies to Criticals. They're fun because you START LOW AND GET BETTER.
Accuracy starts at the cap, and can only get worse. You have to spend points to stay as "good" as you were at level 1.

Its the way we think about a game why we look at accuracy differently.

Youre only here for the rewards, while I'm here for a challenge as well. Balancing of statistics like accuracy (ofcourse it starts at the cap, cannot imagine it other way around ;P) is part of the challenge, and that for me is FUN! And beating the challenge is my reward (=

All the whinners on this thread asking Accuracy to be removed in the sake of having more skills to spent, and they always have endless excuses within their ungenerous hearts.

They never get satisfied with anything that's presented even in the realms of old skool way, and never had enough.
Even if Accuracy skill wouldnt exist, then they eventually would find another skill for whining, as its not hard to guess their secret thoughts, from what they've been up to since.

Overdoing "demagoguery" would not turn out to unwanted/unacceptable results as you would like it to be which is EASY !

Beating around the bush about total removing of this skill is just impossibly unacceptable.

Why ? This request is not unlikely to ask for not getting enough damage, speed etc. So, there left NONE meaningful reason to be found !

It's just the same for asking why you can't do enough damage to mobs with enough speed without giving skills ?! Then you whinners gonna also found this stuation so called - UNFUN and then will want them to be removed for the reason you suffer !

Just remove the word "Accuracy" in your request next time, and add another random skill, and it will work, oh and was forgetting you also should try to persuade people with incomprehensible reasons behind.

* Just admit it this game is not for YOU, cause PoE stands noble against difficulties on all counts, and will not be your average RPG.

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wyldmage wrote:

Building accuracy into your character is not a skill. Its simply a reaction to game mechanics.

Currently, "top end" weapons all have 50% or more Increased Physical Damage.

What if all weapon base damages were reduced 90%? Then "top end" weapons would have different stats.

This has nothing to do with skill.

False, and also a non sequitur.

Knowing how much Accuracy you need, making sure you hit enough Accuracy nodes to do well, etc etc? That is skill — just not the skills you seem to be interested in. Which is a problem, because those are the skills that Path of Exile seems to be preferentially demanding; you may be playing a game that is not for you.

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wyldmage wrote:

Accuracy is a non-fun stat. Increased attack speed, critical chance, armor penetration etc are fun.
Why?
Because they don't make the player feel like they did something wrong.

Here are two games. Game 1 you begin play doing 100 dps, with a 95% chance to hit. Game 2 you begin play doing 95 dps, with a 100% chance to hit.
In game 1, every time you level, your chance to hit goes down 1%.
In game 2, every increase in monster level, they gain an additional 1% health.
In both games, you have the same skill options. You can either put a point into Accuracy for 2% to hit, damage for 2% more dps, or crit chance for 2% more chance to crit.
BUT! What happens if you level up to level 21 and don't spend any points?

In game 1, you now have only an 75% chance to crit. One fourth of the time, you miss. 1/16 you miss twice. 1/64 (that's pretty often considering how often you attack 3 times) you'll miss 3 attacks in a row and hate your life.

In game 2, the monsters have gained 20% more hp than in game 1. So it takes you 20% longer to kill them relative to if they were Game 1 monsters. But you still have reliable results.

But in both games, the average time-to-kill the mob is the same.
Now lets spend some points. Player 1 has to spend his points in accuracy just to stop from being "worse", while player 2 gets to spend his points in order to "be better".
One of those feels better than the other.

This just shows dramatic misunderstanding of both the game's mechanics and of human psychology.

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nermind wrote:

My main point was that youre suggesting to replace something affected by player (accuracy) with something that player cannot affect (monster hp). THAT I find really unfun.

Um, you seem kinda blind here.
If the players loses 1% to hit, and can spend 1 point to gain 1% to hit, the player has control but it's a negative mechanic.
If the monster gains 1% health, and the player can spend a point to gain 1% attack speed, the player has control but it's a positive mechanic.

I'm not sure why you think that player-side mechanics and monster-side mechanics are seperate. They are tied together. Accuracy degradation makes monsters harder to kill. More health makes monsters harder to kill. They accomplish EXACTLY the same thing, except for method.

The biggest difference? A Wand Witch wouldn't have to dump countless points into Dex skills - she could actually build in whichever parts of the tree she wants.

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nermind wrote:

Youre only here for the rewards, while I'm here for a challenge as well. Balancing of statistics like accuracy (ofcourse it starts at the cap, cannot imagine it other way around ;P) is part of the challenge, and that for me is FUN! And beating the challenge is my reward (=

You must not read any of my other posts. I'm here for challenge. I don't care if they give all monsters 50% more health if it means removing a mechanic that feels as anti-fun as accuracy degradation.
Or start us at 5% accuracy and scale upwards. Then it's not a penalizing mechanic, your character justs starts as a pile of shit that you can improve on.

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BrecMadak wrote:

All the whinners on this thread asking Accuracy to be removed in the sake of having more skills to spent, and they always have endless excuses within their ungenerous hearts.

They never get satisfied with anything that's presented even in the realms of old skool way, and never had enough.

* Just admit it this game is not for YOU, cause PoE stands noble against difficulties on all counts, and will not be your average RPG.

You mad, bro?
Seriously, your posts have had zero real logic, and 50% of them just flame people. Grow up.

My main is a Witch. Casters are my #1 favorite class. This discussion won't make the game easier for me - if anything it'd make it harder.
In case you need a counter-flame to understand:

You are stupid, your points are stupid, and nothing you say matters until you learn to use your brain to make posts.

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DragoonWraith wrote:

False, and also a non sequitur.

Knowing how much Accuracy you need, making sure you hit enough Accuracy nodes to do well, etc etc? That is skill — just not the skills you seem to be interested in. Which is a problem, because those are the skills that Path of Exile seems to be preferentially demanding; you may be playing a game that is not for you.

This just shows dramatic misunderstanding of both the game's mechanics and of human psychology.

Another quality post that says I'm wrong without really making any valid points.

Misunderstanding of game mechanics and human psychology?
For point 1, which part of game mechanic am I misunderstanding? Does accuracy not go down as you level? Details you troll, details.
For point 2, why don't you get in touch with Zileas. He works on this kinda shit at Riot games, used to be with Arena.net. He's even got nice big threads on fun vs anti-fun, and anti-patterns.

I have yet to see someone point out WHY accuracy is better than scaled monster hp that you have to properly synergize your other passives to overcome.

It boils down to accuracy is JUST a dps increase, like most other skills. Except classes like Witches get to ignore it, and laugh at everyone else.

Here is why the argument doesn't make any sense to me. The relevant quote is:

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wyldmage wrote:

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If the monster gains 1% health, and the player can spend a point to gain 1% attack speed, the player has control but it's a positive mechanic.
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It seems that what people are caught up in here is that accuracy is described as a percentage rather than just a number that you can add to -like attack speed and damage. You could use the exact quote you just stated, and put in place monster's chance to dodge for attack speed and it would say exactly the same thing:

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If the monster gains 1% [chance to dodge], and the player can spend a point to gain 1% [chance to hit], the player has control but it's a positive mechanic.

Can you explain to me why that statement is any different than the statement you made? The only difference is that instead of displaying attack speed and attack damage as a percentage you are only able to see a number that you can steadily increase. What if, for instance, instead of displaying dps as it does now it instead displayed it as your average damage divided by average monster health at your level? So if you are level 30 with an average of 165 dps and the monsters at level 30 have an average of 450 health your effective dps could be displayed as 36.6%. Now when you level to 31 if the monsters gain 10% health and you don't put any points into increased damage, your dps remains 165 while their health goes to 495, thus your effective dps could be displayed as 33.3%. So you have just gotten 3.3% worse through no choice of your own in one of the fun mechanics already in place. Can you explain in a logical, substantive way why this example is different than accuracy?

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shadowtwin wrote:

Here is why the argument doesn't make any sense to me. The relevant quote is:

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wyldmage wrote:

...
If the monster gains 1% health, and the player can spend a point to gain 1% attack speed, the player has control but it's a positive mechanic.
...

It seems that what people are caught up in here is that accuracy is described as a percentage rather than just a number that you can add to -like attack speed and damage. You could use the exact quote you just stated, and put in place monster's chance to dodge for attack speed and it would say exactly the same thing:

"

If the monster gains 1% [chance to dodge], and the player can spend a point to gain 1% [chance to hit], the player has control but it's a positive mechanic.

Can you explain to me why that statement is any different than the statement you made? The only difference is that instead of displaying attack speed and attack damage as a percentage you are only able to see a number that you can steadily increase. What if, for instance, instead of displaying dps as it does now it instead displayed it as your average damage divided by average monster health at your level? So if you are level 30 with an average of 165 dps and the monsters at level 30 have an average of 450 health your effective dps could be displayed as 36.6%. Now when you level to 31 if the monsters gain 10% health and you don't put any points into increased damage, your dps remains 165 while their health goes to 495, thus your effective dps could be displayed as 33.3%. So you have just gotten 3.3% worse through no choice of your own in one of the fun mechanics already in place. Can you explain in a logical, substantive way why this example is different than accuracy?

Simple. While they are both negatively displayed, taking 11 attacks to kill a mob instead of 10 feels like natural progression. There's no problem there. But if EVERY monster takes 11 attacks to kill, instead of "10 if you don't miss", then you remove something that only exists to frustrate players.

I would rather:
Monsters take 11 hits to kill, but I don't miss. Bosses take 55 hit to kill, and I don't miss.

Instead of:
Monsters take 10 hits to kill with a 10% chance to miss. Bosses take 50 hits to kill with a 10% chance to miss.

Why? Because with the miss chance, I can get 4 misses in a row, or miss 15 times when fighting the boss.
That might make me lose if I'm fighting at the edge of what I can manage (but I'd survive in the first example).

And I'd die not because of player skill, but because the RNG told me to.

Why do you think evasion is being re-worked? Because "death by RNG" is not fun.

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wyldmage wrote:

If the players loses 1% to hit, and can spend 1 point to gain 1% to hit, the player has control but it's a negative mechanic.

Wrong. The player has a choice if he finds a way to increase his accuracy by 90 due to equip optimization and gain 1 point to spend in damage or what ever he likes that way.

This is the game principle, you need gear to optimize your skills to fit the gameplay you like. If you like it simple go to Diablo3 (http://picupload.org/i/f2bf96da8016.jpg) :P

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And I'd die not because of player skill, but because the RNG told me to.

Randomness is used in most games to break monotony. This is the main point of accuracy, as well as crits. Critical hit feel better because it made in a positive way, contrary to missing. But if I follow your logic, you'd prefer playing without critical hits because otherwise you could die by lack of crits, am I right ?

I think one important distinction here:


Let's completely take accuracy out the equation.

You start at 95% chance to hit. Against monsters of your level, you always have 95% chance to hit. Done.

Now, do you prefer that mechanic, or making monsters require 5.3% more damage to kill?

That is, would you rather deal slightly more damage (as a percentage of monster hp), but be able to have whiff-streaks...
Or would you rather have a consistent result?

The act of putting points into accuracy is not what bothers me, it is the miss mechanic itself. It is a negative play experience, further reinforced by the fact that the stat gets worse as you level, unless you spend points on it.