Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

In the current FFA system, the player landing the killing blow determines the drops. This forces players to make a choice: kill speed or loot stats. This creates a sort of balance, where players have to participate (by getting kills) to get rewards for their IIR/IIQ builds. If they don't kill, their IIR/IIQ stats are wasted.

I am failing to see the logic here. Lets look at it closer here.

Player A. Increase Rarity 10% Focuses on Dealing Damage
Player B. 300% IIR focuses on getting better gear
Player C. 150% IIR Collects IIR when he can but not to the point where he will drop better gear for it.

In a FFA situation Player A is going to get the most kills.That means even though player C gave up alot for his IIR he won't be getting much use out of it. Player B. might get a little use out of his. But most of the people who focus on IIR won't get much use out of it if someone joins who decided to go straight damager.

So this idea of fair favors the people who focus on damage while the people who took the time to gather IIR or IIQ really don't get much out of it. In this system it almost makes no sense to gather IIR/IIQ unless you ask the damage person to slow down kills which makes Player A,B, and C at a disadvantage.

Now with Individual loot it would look like:

Player A. might kill everything faster and get the drops he gets. Playber B. Would help a little more and get slightly better drops. Player C. Would kill a little slower and get more drops.

So everyone gets exactly what they sought after. Oppose to the previous system where only Player A got exactly what he sought after.

The only part I can see being unfair is player C getting either more or better drops but doing silghtly less. And I think the remedy for that is people with high IIR offering some of that gear to others. It seems like the majority of the drops I get are for different builds when I am playing so I am sure most likely in a game with 4 people that will still be the same.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

If GGG were to make an individual loot system, they would have to choose one of two basic rules

-The person landing the killing blow determines everyone's drops. This would piss off a lot of people, especially those who want to stack IIR/IIQ stats at the expense of killing speed, as it would negate all their build effort when some strong-arming marauder or nuke-caster keeps landing final hits. In your example, the Ranger would have received drops equal to yours, based on your stats.

This is the exact system with FFA Loot, correct? So this drop system causes a group to be upset and really only favors people who ignore the IIR/IIQ.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

-An individual's stats determine his own drops regardless of the killing blow. This promotes multiple-character farming where one person runs with a main "kill" build and one or more IIR/IIQ builds tagging along for better drops. It also promotes leeching. In your example, the Ranger could have gotten very poor drops, even if she caused the most damage, or she could have gotten much better drops, even if she didn't do any damage at all.

This would only promote that if you are grouping with friends who you can trust. But IIR/IIQ would get around FFA with grouping with players you trust as well. So lets take away that situation because any situation where you group with people you trust it is going to be fun and enjoyable.

So now we are just looking at random grouping. We have a system where everyone is forced to get the loot quality/quantity of someone who ignored those stats altogether and a system where everyone gets exactly what they put in.

I think the argument that someone might not even do any damage at all is a silly one. Even people who focus on IIR/IIQ will be doing damage just not exactly on par with people who didn't focus on IIR/IIQ. If there is someone not doing any damage I am sure they will end up with no groups to play with sooner or later.

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

I've said it a couple times before (once in this thread, I think) that I would actually prefer an individual loot system. Not to seem hypocritical -- this is a personal desire that I think is far out of place and should not be accommodated. I realize that I only desire it because one of my favorite games of all time (Hellgate: London) introduced the concept to me and I absolutely loved it after years of fighting pickit users in D2. But, I can understand GGG's point of view and their reasoning for having FFA loot in this game, and I have no real opposition to it. It's simply a different style of gameplay, and I'm comfortable with that. I think FFA is overall slightly fairer than individual loot, and it adds a new element to the game that can be competitive or cooperative, or even both. I like systems that require people to work together lest they go at each others' throats; it has a real-world feel as that is human nature.

Both systems have very valid merits. They both have levels of fairness, they both require different build and play strategies, and they both could work.

With all that said, if there were an official poll on the matter, my vote would go to FFA, because I think it's better for the game. My personal preference doesn't fit this game, in my opinion.

I think this is where are opinions almost join together.

My personal preference is an individual loot system.

However, when I play the game I won't be complaining about FFA. I won't like it as much but if it is part of the game I will accept it.

I agree with both systems having very valid merits. They both have levels of fairness, they both require different build and play strategies, and they both could work.

But our viewpoints splinter because I would rather try and change the loot system while it is possible to change it. Or at least offer the best feedback for it that I can.

IF GGG knows the community (or a big part of it-Obviously not all) wants the loot system one way but they still decide to take it another way that is completely their choice. And the game will still rock. People like me will still play it. And on the live forums I will likely defend it.

But right now if there is a chance for change I will strive for it.

As Chris said in the first post the system is not set in stone yet.

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soulweaverx wrote:

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

In the current FFA system, the player landing the killing blow determines the drops. This forces players to make a choice: kill speed or loot stats. This creates a sort of balance, where players have to participate (by getting kills) to get rewards for their IIR/IIQ builds. If they don't kill, their IIR/IIQ stats are wasted.

I am failing to see the logic here. Lets look at it closer here.

Player A. Increase Rarity 10% Focuses on Dealing Damage
Player B. 300% IIR focuses on getting better gear
Player C. 150% IIR Collects IIR when he can but not to the point where he will drop better gear for it.

In a FFA situation Player A is going to get the most kills.That means even though player C gave up alot for his IIR he won't be getting much use out of it. Player B. might get a little use out of his. But most of the people who focus on IIR won't get much use out of it if someone joins who decided to go straight damager.

So this idea of fair favors the people who focus on damage while the people who took the time to gather IIR or IIQ really don't get much out of it. In this system it almost makes no sense to gather IIR/IIQ unless you ask the damage person to slow down kills which makes Player A,B, and C at a disadvantage.

In a FFA system, your Player A will get the majority of the kills, negating Players' B and C IIR/IIQ stats. These 2 players will be forced to try harder to get rewards for their stats, which is the balance. You can't simply leech drops with this system. That is why it is fairer: you have to kill stuff to get drops. As I said, they could create a system where damage amounts determine drops, but that most likely won't happen. This system favors the player who puts thought into his build to balance killing ability with IIR/IIQ. He is the one who will be able to kill and reap the benefits of his loot stats. Those who go all damage, forsaking the loot stats, should realize they're gimping their drops.

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soulweaverx wrote:

Now with Individual loot it would look like:

Player A. might kill everything faster and get the drops he gets. Playber B. Would help a little more and get slightly better drops. Player C. Would kill a little slower and get more drops.

So everyone gets exactly what they sought after. Oppose to the previous system where only Player A got exactly what he sought after.

This is where the 2 options come into play. If GGG gave everyone rewards based on his own stats, you wouldn't have to do anything to get rewards. This promotes leech farming. If they gave rewards based on actions, i.e. kills, it would be closer to fair as those with poor killing builds but high IIR/IIQ won't get as much loot:time due to killing ability, just as if they were playing solo. That's far fairer than getting rewards for someone else's killing ability.

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soulweaverx wrote:

The only part I can see being unfair is player C getting either more or better drops but doing silghtly less. And I think the remedy for that is people with high IIR offering some of that gear to others. It seems like the majority of the drops I get are for different builds when I am playing so I am sure most likely in a game with 4 people that will still be the same.

I'd ask why this type of sharing can't occur in a FFA system as well. Sharing is even more likely in FFA because everyone can see the drops, which can pressure people into feeling guilty about grabbing everything.

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soulweaverx wrote:

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

If GGG were to make an individual loot system, they would have to choose one of two basic rules

-The person landing the killing blow determines everyone's drops. This would piss off a lot of people, especially those who want to stack IIR/IIQ stats at the expense of killing speed, as it would negate all their build effort when some strong-arming marauder or nuke-caster keeps landing final hits. In your example, the Ranger would have received drops equal to yours, based on your stats.

This is the exact system with FFA Loot, correct? So this drop system causes a group to be upset and really only favors people who ignore the IIR/IIQ.

This is the fairer of the 2 options I proposed. If you don't participate, you don't get rewards for your build. No one should be rewarded for simply following someone else. It favors the balanced kill/loot builds over pure kill and pure loot.

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soulweaverx wrote:

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WhiteBoy88 wrote:

-An individual's stats determine his own drops regardless of the killing blow. This promotes multiple-character farming where one person runs with a main "kill" build and one or more IIR/IIQ builds tagging along for better drops. It also promotes leeching. In your example, the Ranger could have gotten very poor drops, even if she caused the most damage, or she could have gotten much better drops, even if she didn't do any damage at all.

This would only promote that if you are grouping with friends who you can trust. But IIR/IIQ would get around FFA with grouping with players you trust as well. So lets take away that situation because any situation where you group with people you trust it is going to be fun and enjoyable.

When I talk about multiple-character farming, I'm talking about 1 person running multiple accounts for massive farming results. This won't work if all characters have to participate, which this option doesn't require. This is the option that rewards character who don't do anything but follow along, which is what I mean when I say it promotes leeching. Granted, you can easily kick someone who leeches, but if the other option were the implemented system, you wouldn't even have to worry about kicking leechers because no one would be able to leech in the first place.

I think the question fundamentally comes to Balance. Not to fairness. I agree with Whiteboy88, both systems of play ofter different gameplay. Both can be develoed to be "fair." Where the differences arise and where I think people get irked is in the balance that arises. The techniques that are developed which best suit the resulting system. This is why games go through Beta, why Chris was asking for input.

Asking for a multi-player game to be fair just doesn't make sense. Players can make any situation unfair. In an individual loot system and a PVP environment, someone gets something you like so you kill them and take it. Not fair.

The resulting feel of a game comes from the balance of many systems. In this case a FFA loot system probably does fit best with the Wraeclast world in terms of feel. It is up to the developers then, now that they have decided on the feel the want, to make the loot system balanced while retaining that feel. I think this thread has devolved from a helpful discussion on maintaining the feel the devs wanted. It would be more interesting, I think, to read about useful suggestions you might have along the same lines the devs are already heading. This entry from Truevision is a great suggestion for example.

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Truevision wrote:

Heyas - love the look and idea of this game so far. How about a queue along the edge of the UI to manage the drops. The current item's detail is shown automatically so players can keep fighting and just glance over to see what's next. When it's timer expires, a random keyboard character is shown there that you quickly press to go for the item. (or any other minigame-type input you want) The wrong keypress locks you out for 0.5 seconds while the right keypress has the client calculate local time between key availability and keypress. Local calculation eliminates the latency issue. Not having to walk to a drop location resolves the ranged/location issues. Having it be a random key rather than clicking helps reduce the use of hacks such as spam-click drivers. Still it will be a contest and you'll have to pay attention and be quick.

It would be nice if afterward it listed who won and also who went for it - for groups trying to play nice this helps. There were great suggestions in this thread that could apply here too like dealing with surplus items (that no one goes for), or having items only appear in your queue if you did >x% damage or whatever measurement of contribution you think makes sense.

impressive game :O

This is one of the most unique and intricate looting systems I've ever seen. I cannot wait to try it. :)

I just think it should be whoever deals the most damage gets the item and if they don't pick it up it either disappears or is viewable by everyone, but 1 second is not very long at all, I think it should be at least 10. If your killing loads of monsters at once you won't really be looking at loot, just the monsters and your stats.

Have you thought about a dueling stakes system at all for making claims to drops from bosses? Like say a particularly rare item drops after the death of a boss and players offer up an item at stake to be put into a duel with anyone else who also offers up their own stake.

After reading several of the first few and last pages (can't read through all 100+ pages of this thread), I feel the simplest and fairest solution would be to get rid of the need to be standing on top of an item to pick it up. I think there was one other MMO that did this, so it's not an unheard of concept. It would eliminate the ridiculous scenario of a rare item dropping and EVERYONE immediately sprinting for it. Ranged characters would no longer be at a disadvantage either, and it would keep in the spirit of "cut-throat" FFA looting. If still wanting to account for latency, a one second timer could still be placed on the items.

I like the idea. A similar system was implemented in other games and seemed to help with the issue of players stealing or taking items that then make it unfair to others.

Ok I personally think that the system u ppl are planning is really ok, but i would like to get those seconds higher,just enough so when others steal ur loot u cant complain , coz u were given just enough time to pick it up and stay concentrated on the current situation ur in.Coz I know ppl r like that n they will always complain for a lot of silly things just becouse they r angry or something.I know it will be hard, but try to find that limit,coz after all u guys r grinding GEAR games,n these games r sometimes all about the loot ;). be carefull with this guys, few seconds can affect a lot. good luck.