Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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fevgatos wrote:

People keep coming about the hardcore nature of FFA. It's not, get over it. There are no reprecursions no matter what you do, no tough choices, nothing. You can just click in everything that drops and that's all there is to it. Guess what, everyone clicks on all drops, so according to your logic, everyone is a hardcore player. Buhuhu, not. A hardcore game is a game that actions have consequences, POE has none.

I posted this in another thread:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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WUlf1337 wrote:

I am so glad I can finally concentrate on the game, effects and play more relaxed, than trying to ninja (and I was ninjaing very good). Dont know how anyone can say, perm allco was a wrong decision, when there is still the old system + an ffa option for the ultra ninjas out there. Wtf do you want more?

Neither. I agree that having huge disparities in loot preferences between players is not a good thing; however, that doesn't mean I support a change that almost totally eliminates loot preferences between players. That's why I mentioned the matchmaking system as an example of an appropriate fix.

The thing people fail to understand is that how you fix a problem is important. There is such a thing as fixing things the wrong way, which hold the potential for disaster because the "improvement" gets a lot of support for being "better" than things used to be. Normally these are changes where a certain practice is almost completely eliminated, like non-permanent allocation in PoE or face-to-face trading in Diablo 3. Permanent allocation didn't fix loot tension, it amputated it. It's something we should have kept and fixed properly.

Now to answer your post, fevgatos, you're half-wrong about FFA SA not being hardcore. Don't get me wrong, you're absolutely right that there was nothing hardcore about snatching someone else's item before them; however, there was something hardcore about failing to snatch your item before someone else. The problem was, exactly as you state, that from the ninja's perspective there were no repercussions and thus no tough choices. But that doesn't mean that we should utterly abandon the mechanic at the behest of the unwashed masses and totally remove everything hardcore from the loot system. As I said in the quoted post, we didn't fix the (admittedly broken) "hardcore" loot system, we simply threw it in the bin and replaced it with carebear bullshit.

There is understandably a smaller portion of players that enjoy the forced FFA and feel that it is hardcore having to grab your loot before someone else does.

But then there's the majority who like myself don't think its hardcore at all, and find it to be a boring waste of time.

The current loot system is not for the "unwashed masses" or more "carebear". Its simply not what you enjoy. Just recognize that and get over it. There's no point in hurling insults at what different people like. The devs decided to go with what we have now and thats that. Thats their choice.

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Now to answer your post, fevgatos, you're half-wrong about FFA SA not being hardcore. Don't get me wrong, you're absolutely right that there was nothing hardcore about snatching someone else's item before them; however, there was something hardcore about failing to snatch your item before someone else. The problem was, exactly as you state, that from the ninja's perspective there were no repercussions and thus no tough choices. But that doesn't mean that we should utterly abandon the mechanic at the behest of the unwashed masses and totally remove everything hardcore from the loot system. As I said in the quoted post, we didn't fix the (admittedly broken) "hardcore" loot system, we simply threw it in the bin and replaced it with carebear bullshit.

But my point is that there was absolutely nothing "hardcore" about SA in a purely PVE enviroment. Generally, there is no difficulty picking up items. The hardcore part of an FFA system comes from the way the players will interact with each other after picking each others loot etc. But POE has no player interaction. If PVP was enabled then yeah, FFA would be a hardcore looting method, but right now it isn't, no matter how you cut it.

Then there is the difference between hard games and hardcore games. Hardcore games in my book are games that punish the player severely, like Lineage / EVE etc., where you lose items / xp / ships, and a lot of them. You had to grind for 2 days 24/7 to get back the xp you lost from a death. Hard games are games which need skills and reflexes, like DotA for example. POE is neither. Claiming that its the most hardcore game evah go back to d3 (like 99% of the FFA supporters do here) is fucking outrageous. Even D3 is harder than is, no buts and whys.

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You know, you keep making these excuses about why things should be your way. Just like the Tetris example.

That argument goes both ways you know.

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If another great APRG gets made with FFA loot will the horde of you come to cry on their forums steps night and day till you get what you want? Why? What is your damage?

You dont know how to have a proper conversation, that's your problem. You keep repeating the "crying and go back to d3" shit again and again. If you missed that part, it was Chris that created this very thread asking for suggestions. And if you missed that other part, he specifically mentioned that he doesn't want the "instanced sucks / go back to d3" crowd in this thread. If anything, you are one of the people the GGG team doesn't want getting suggestions from.

I didnt want anything my way. I didn't demand changes. I put out an opinion, that from the way I see it, FFA adds nothing and it certainly isn't hardcore. Nothing more, nothing less. I didn't ask for instanced or to remove FFA. I was gonna play the game anyways, no matter what. I even flamed people saying "if this stays FFA I will stop playing / won't give money". Go read my old posts.

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Screw that ninja garbage. Ninja this and ninja that.. Its just FFA loot, nothing more or less.

There can't be FFA without the ninja part. You may not be literally ninjaing items, but the moment you camp X item for 3-8 seconds till the timers get removed so you can pick it up, you are leeching. And since you are not the only one doing that but probably most of the party (especially if something valuable drops) then half the party is leeching xp from people that dont want to camp each other's loot. If you haven't been in a PA party, join one. See how much faster the game is.

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Just loot flopping all over the ground which can be picked up. If your mind takes it to ninjas and griefing its because you let it. This loot floppage creates a special kind of atmosphere/emotion in the game. If you don't get it, you never will and theres nothing more to discuss about it.

Loot options in POE has made it dull for the most part.

And that's just your opinion. Which you are welcome to have btw, but doesn't make you right. What kind of atmosphere does it create? Dont you tell me about cutthroat and shit.

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fevgatos wrote:

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Now to answer your post, fevgatos, you're half-wrong about FFA SA not being hardcore. Don't get me wrong, you're absolutely right that there was nothing hardcore about snatching someone else's item before them; however, there was something hardcore about failing to snatch your item before someone else. The problem was, exactly as you state, that from the ninja's perspective there were no repercussions and thus no tough choices. But that doesn't mean that we should utterly abandon the mechanic at the behest of the unwashed masses and totally remove everything hardcore from the loot system. As I said in the quoted post, we didn't fix the (admittedly broken) "hardcore" loot system, we simply threw it in the bin and replaced it with carebear bullshit.

But my point is that there was absolutely nothing "hardcore" about SA in a purely PVE enviroment. Generally, there is no difficulty picking up items. The hardcore part of an FFA system comes from the way the players will interact with each other after picking each others loot etc. But POE has no player interaction. If PVP was enabled then yeah, FFA would be a hardcore looting method, but right now it isn't, no matter how you cut it.

The ability to enable PvP on item thieves would have been a better fix than implementing loot options. And I think, with some creativity, GGG could have thought of an even better fix than PvP.

My point is that we should have added some kind of interaction, not just given up and tossed it away.

PA or pickit.

/EOT

Pickit users should be perma-banned.

Not as easy said as done, but still the truth.

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fevgatos wrote:

There can't be FFA without the ninja part. You may not be literally ninjaing items, but the moment you camp X item for 3-8 seconds till the timers get removed so you can pick it up, you are leeching. And since you are not the only one doing that but probably most of the party (especially if something valuable drops) then half the party is leeching xp from people that dont want to camp each other's loot. If you haven't been in a PA party, join one. See how much faster the game is.

My god, people like you make me want to uninstall poe and never touch an ARPG ever again.

Why is it back in D2 the term NINJA didn't exist? When did this bitchy term become so popular?

Camp z item = Being blocked by stupid timer. Nothing more and nothing less.

You people see the game wrong. You see it as griefing, leeching or entitlement. I see it as shit flopping on the ground. Some people bitch like kids and others just keep rolling and killing and not giving a shit.

BTW PA is not faster. Its boring and dull. If I see a drop I like I have to pretend it doesn't exist and come back later to pick it up.. That's faster? Also PA is not fair at all, watching RNG + RNG allocation is a pain in the ass.

What I think of when I see this thread and the arguments therein:



:|

I understand that this game wants to be unorthodox, totally unlike the others. Made by hardcore gamers with hardcore intent towards gaming approach. Already there is quite a... vast, to say the least, skill system and all the fuss with item upgrades. Fine, for RPG-interested person this might be a challenge to savor.

But why go as far as making PuG gameplay hardcore? This... "cutthroat" feeling in terms of loot, I don't get it. I have two little schizo beings inside my head, one wants to immediately react with all the curses in the world towards people who want to brag and swag, and that's the way this "cutthroat" is designed. The other wants to try and analyze it, and this is the sole reason I am trying to write a 950+th post that won't even be read.

What is wrong with personal loot? You play with people, brave a fight with difficult enemy, know that you will get the loot, others will get the loot. You've killed an loot-dropping enemy away from others? Have some courtesy and point them to where their share is left on the ground.
Everyone is happy.
The only problem I can see with that - is loot inflation. Multiple people gather and do the content that 1-2 could manage, and each gets the loot in less time than they would do alone. Unless it's supposed to hurt global economy, you can just trade and be happy that you can contribute to each other's progression.
Overall - a peaceful and cheerful environment, where nobody is left behind.

Looking at the approach you take in creating PoE, I clearly understand that this is too "wussy" for you, for your game. But there has to be a concensus, and so I read that there is already "marked" loot for a few seconds. All would be fine, but then you say "you get the loot if the other person doesn't care". This line is just... Okay, if somebody is boosting you and doesn't care about low lvl loot - fair enough, but what if the person is laggy? Shy? Noob? Slowpoke? To the grabber go the spoils? Is that supposed to be cutthroat?
You play with others and are ready to cut their throat for loot? I wish I could come up with the solution for this(without obviosuly suggesting "Hello Kitty" personal loot). Making items bound to the person indefinitely(until they are on the ground), would make it further worse, as people would blame others and RNG for their luck(as in MMO rolls). So the direction of your loot is either going to go worse, or just stay there. I wouldn't be surprised it if went worse, as it is my PoV, not yours.

To conclude this, I have barely started this game with great reluctance after other genre benchmarks(got tired of this kind of stuff), and while I can condone dark world, super big(and susceptible to fail and reroll) skill system for the sake of at least some uniquity... I will refrain from partying with people, and unless I find similar minded people by the time group content kicks in - that might be it for me. Not a terrible loss, you need beta supporters and Rulers of Wraeclast, but I guess I will be foolish enough to leave just another comment to this almost thousand post thread.