Experience Loss Penalty for Dying = Punished and Stuck for Trying New Builds and Abilities

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Or if you die a lot, makes you not reach the next one til you sort things out. Effectively forcing you to make a build that can survive in order to reach the higher levels.

How is being forced to play a certain way fun? Being pigeon-holed to play a certain way is one of the downfalls of D3. If people like playing with crazy builds and specs, let them. Cookie cutter playing is not fun because you are just a copy of someone else. Yes they may have more success, but that is probably due to the quality of gear they have.

Not all tactics work for everyone. Following a cookie-cutter spec does not guarantee anything. A player might be awful at that spec, while they rock at some crazy spec that is totally unorthodox to everyone else. Telling someone they have to play this certain way to have fun is no different than Jay Wilson over at Blizzard telling you the same thing. And look what is happening to that game...

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reaper2191 wrote:

Being casual and not knowing the inside- and out- of your class and the math and theorycrafting involved in it does not warrant being punished. If people want to be glass-cannons in SC leagues then so be it. It has no impact on any other player except that one. Casual gamers make up a good 85+% of the gaming community out there. Regressing in any game will cause a player to not play that game anymore. Simple history shows this.

Uhhm...

Really?

You think that if players can easy mode their way through the whole game there will be no impact on other players?

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TheRabbit303 wrote:

Uhhm...

Really?

You think that if players can easy mode their way through the whole game there will be no impact on other players?

Every class should be able to "easy mode" things if they figure out how. All I am saying is let people play how they want to play without stomping everyone in the ground. When people scream nerf this and that, they should be saying Ok, we should buff this and that to stay on par.

If you're looking at the PvP aspect of this, every class should be the opposite of another class, having its own abilities that counter-act another powerful ability, while being on par with others.

People will find a way to cheese this game just like any other. If youre a glass cannon or paper tiger, you get hit your dead. Not everyone has "awesome kiting skills". You will eventually find a play style that works for you. That is how this "should" be. So if hitting like a truck and being squishy like a bug is your play style and it works for you, great. I will eventually figure out how to do it for my class and if it doesnt work for me, I wont use it. Simple as that.

It has nothing to do with PvP.

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reaper2191 wrote:

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Or if you die a lot, makes you not reach the next one til you sort things out. Effectively forcing you to make a build that can survive in order to reach the higher levels.

How is being forced to play a certain way fun? Being pigeon-holed to play a certain way is one of the downfalls of D3. If people like playing with crazy builds and specs, let them. Cookie cutter playing is not fun because you are just a copy of someone else. Yes they may have more success, but that is probably due to the quality of gear they have.

Not all tactics work for everyone. Following a cookie-cutter spec does not guarantee anything. A player might be awful at that spec, while they rock at some crazy spec that is totally unorthodox to everyone else. Telling someone they have to play this certain way to have fun is no different than Jay Wilson over at Blizzard telling you the same thing. And look what is happening to that game...

That quote has nothing to do with being forced to play a certain way. At the very most, he's talking about forcing players to play builds that will actually be able to play through the game. That's why there's progressing difficulty: to make players adapt to overcome said difficulty. If you can do that with a glass cannon, that's fine. If you need to use the suggested method of building more defensively, that's fine as well. If your wonky evasion-based Spark Marauder can do it, congratulations on creating an effective build and being skilled enough to make it work. PoE isn't and will never be a game that allows sandbox character building where any and all characters will excel with minimal effort. If it was, there wouldn't be any challenge.

Having a penalty for dying adds to the challenge of the game. If a player knew he could simply try the same thing over and over until he receives a lucky break to defeat the content, that player is not being challenged. Regardless of what some players may think, the Default league does require an aspect of challenge. That shouldn't be restricted to other leagues, especially just for the sake of having an easy mode where there is no danger.

And, no, walking across town to the waypoint or portal is not a punishment. "Oh, crap, I died. Time to walk back through my portal and get back to fighting Merveil." Where's the sense of danger? What incentive is there to stay alive instead of playing Leroy Jenkins? Scrolls are about as rare as rocks on a gravel road in the later difficulties.

XP loss is nothing more than a loss of time. It's the same as if you had a timed xp debuff. It's a better system than dropping all of your gear and having to go pick it up, defenseless against whatever just killed you. Having a currency item to avoid xp loss probably won't happen, either, since the devs don't want league-specific items. It would be useless in any hardcore-based league.

<<<Being casual and not knowing the inside- and out- of your class and the math and theorycrafting involved in it does not warrant being punished. If people want to be glass-cannons in SC leagues then so be it. It has no impact on any other player except that one. Casual gamers make up a good 85+% of the gaming community out there. Regressing in any game will cause a player to not play that game anymore. Simple history shows this.

Not saying there wont be challenges in SC leagues by any means. The higher level you get the harder things naturally get. I would rather clear a SC game and learn the mechanics along the way while having fun doing it, then carry that over to a HC or the like league. But if you throw a poll out there on whether there should be a penalty for dying, chances are people will vote no more than yes. Just imagine dying in Super Mario Bros and your NES exploding. Yes I know they are two different genre's of games, but the point is the same somewhat.

I play games to enjoy them, learn them, and beat them, all without wanting to shove my keyboard into my eye because every time I die.

Any casual gamer does not want to hit a brick wall with no way to climb over it. Case in point, D3. These walls cause you to do lower Acts over and over because 1) You dont have the gear to progress and 2)Dying your way through content and still not progressing is not fun.

I think when you die, returning back to base camp is punishment enough. At least on the way back you rethink your plan of action and eventually get it down pat.

As I said above, removing a death penalty from SC leagues is not removing any challenging content to the game. It will keep the player interested in the game and they will eventually cross over to HC modes for the much bigger challenge. It is not as if there were an AH or reasons to stock up currency for anything.

The main point alot of developers have when creating a game is how can we keep people interested while keeping the game challenging on a continuous basis.

The thesis behind this wall of text is that doing "Barney" mode, having fun, and learning the game before diving head first into a hardcore mentality will keep a lot of player interest.>>>

THIS ^^^ times 1,000. If PoE wants to keep a good and large casual gamer constituency, follow the above advice. I died three times in a row when I was trying some new armor and weapon combination with some new ability gems and got very discouraged when I realized I was losing so much experience every time I died. I couldn't remember exactly what my build was that was working before, but I finally figured it out. I think that there are probably a lot of casual gamers that would give up at that point and go back to a game where they were always progressing. I'm so glad I didn't give up and pressed on, but I’m very concerned about other casual gamers being really turned off by large experience loss and quitting.

People will always love to make excuses whenever things do not suit their book, and this issue is the epitome of it.

First, there is no need to worry about "casuals" in the sake of removing xp penalties, game's popularity won't drop just for the fact that there is xp penalty in PoE, you can't fool me with this dumb reasons. Additionally at the time had Diablo 2's lost people cause it also had xp penalty ? Leaving this question for your self answering.

Secondly "casuals" are not stupid people that won't understand after they do any mistake, which means they can pretty much take lesson from their mistakes.

XP penalty is a must and it ain't change; just as like bread and butter.

Thirdly, A man should do a mistake only once, if he/she does continuously then this means there is a problem with that person, whether he/she doesn't give the much needed care, or his/her build/gear in underlevelled. This had always been like this, and it shall continue being so.

Fourthly, It is you who should be caring his/her build than everything else, also the one that must accommodate to.
Also this is for preventing glass-cannon builds not to be OP without any pay-offs.

Lastly, if there is no risk there is no fun. A game without risks is already a dead one, regardless of how awesome it would ever be.

Edit: Also, dying is fun, hope you will have it in time.

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That quote has nothing to do with being forced to play a certain way. At the very most, he's talking about forcing players to play builds that will actually be able to play through the game

Those two sentences contradict eachother and you supported exactly what he said...

Exp penalties do not make you a better player. They do not make you perfect builds. What they usually do is force you to grind on trivial content until you have 100% certainty of success.

Some people just don't enjoy that. In Diab3 I hated the fact that my monk had to be shield+halo+full defense in Inferno prepatch. I cleared it being burst staff kiting specced. I died a lot!!! But it was way more fun. I also beat Diablo with a way undergeared character compared to what anyone else did at the time, I died A LOT!! I probably spent 3 hrs repeating that fight until I was reading everything perfect and just got everything to work my way. It was so fun for me.

I keep posting this thought in every one of these threads I comment in. I hope it gains acceptance in the community.

"I am sure GGG will create leagues that allow everyone to have fun the way they want to play! Noone should have to play with exp penalties if they don't like them. Noone should have to play without them if they do like them."

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TheRabbit303 wrote:

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reaper2191 wrote:

Being casual and not knowing the inside- and out- of your class and the math and theorycrafting involved in it does not warrant being punished. If people want to be glass-cannons in SC leagues then so be it. It has no impact on any other player except that one. Casual gamers make up a good 85+% of the gaming community out there. Regressing in any game will cause a player to not play that game anymore. Simple history shows this.

Uhhm...

Really?

You think that if players can easy mode their way through the whole game there will be no impact on other players?

I consider myself a casual gamer, and experience loss is a big red flag to continue playing a game. Even if I'm doing badly, I want to feel like I'm at least progressing in some way and my time is worth something. Zero experience gain would be better than experience loss, at least I would be getting some farm. I don't see myself ever wanting to play a Hardcore or Brutal Mode, but I can see playing multiple champions in Normal Mode and spending $$$ on pets, equipment and ability enhancements.

Just my two cents. I love this game and want it to be successful with a large player base.

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ApocalypticTrick wrote:

If PoE wants to keep a good and large casual gamer constituency

It does not.

If your current build/gear/playing skill is not good enough to progress then... your current build/gear/playing skill is not good enough to progress. One of those needs to be changed. There really isn't anymore to say about it.

Furthermore you can play with 0 to minial exp loss through normal and cruel. In Ruthless it does pick up. If nothing in the game is any challenge at all, I won't have any satisfaction in not dying and getting through it.