Experience Loss Penalty for Dying = Punished and Stuck for Trying New Builds and Abilities

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golem09 wrote:

EXP penalties have nothing to do with difficulty. They also have nothing to do with being Hardcore.
They are a far more central element of the game.
I died 3 times yesterday in 2 hours, on lvl 51 Ruthless. Do you think I didn't hate it? Was the game any harder because of the penalty? Did I feel like a hardcore bastard?
No.

Because of the death penalty I felt thrilled and angry yesterday.
Without the death penalty I probably wouldn't have felt anything at all for 2 hours.

I think exp penalty has something to do with difficulty. Basically you can't die too much or you wouldn't level up. And it may be difficult to not die sometimes. Hence exp penalty = difficulty.

I agree, it doesn't have anything to do with being Hardcore. 'Hardcore' is just a historical term for the 'one-death' type of game. And the other meaning is a fat guy in his mom's apartment situation.

I personally play the game to feel something too, maybe without the exp loss we wouldn't feel anything related to the game and could as well quit, am I right?

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cealis wrote:

Well seeing how death penalty was arranged in D3 i think this works better. No xp loss means just go in again and again till the mobs are dead. We should be lucky the mobs don't reset their hp yet.

I would far prefer that enemies reset or the whole zone resets on death than the current exp penalty. Actually I really like that idea! Awesome comment bro!

It would essentially tell you, hey go grind some more, or spend more time planning; but, it wouldn't make you feel like you didn't accomplish anything since you did make some exp the first try.

Wow man, great comment. It just made my mind blown by how great a compromise that would be between two types of frustration.

If you were absolutely horrible, or playing a horrible horrible spec, you would eventually be facing bosses and zones that gave almost 0 progression in exp. If you learned slowly, you would still move forward and never feel like your progression got set back. If you were top tier, you would move beyond the zones to better exp areas and still progress fastest on the ladder.

Anyway great comment!

here's two suggestions to appease the Hard Core zealots out there that like to be punished for death.

1) force move any char that agrees that being punished for dying is great fun and enhances 'game tension' to hard core, so if they die they'll lose their toon (fun is fun, right!)

2) display an option upon death:

- You have died, would you like to be punished? -

[] yes
[] no

Then folks who like to be punished for failing can simply click YES and it makes it more fun for them, self torture on fail, I like it !

For everyone else, hard core is hard core, that's where the death penalties should be, not in the regular modes.

There will NOT be an option to decide, cause there WILL always be a xp loss as default, now deal with it !

Get this to your brains.

but..bUt.....b..u..t...

MUMMY!!!!! POE beat me I cry!

I was really hoping to get into this beta, but if this is a game where experience loss is the death penalty then that shifts my view quite a bit. Death penalties do discourage people from experimenting and having fun and encourage closed minded elitism. Don't believe me? What is the main reason raiding guilds are so picky in MMO's. Death means wasted time and money. Especially in exp loss games. And if you don't run the tried and true builds you get ostracized because you are lowering the groups chances slightly, increasing the chance that more than a dozen people will not only miss out on loot, but lose exp and money to boot. And if high level exp loss is an issue, people who like to experiment with builds in a huge talent tree will be treated like lepers when it comes to partnering up. Simple solution, if there are multiple difficulty levels save exp loss for the hardest one or two. That way it's still there for people who crave the challenge, but not restricting people who don't want the hassle. And it will naturally divide people into groups of similarly minded players.

I have very mixed feelings about the current merciless death penalty, however I chalk a lot of it up to my build.

I'm a bow ranger, not really glass cannon either, 1k hp, 9k armor with IR, Decent resist with my andy ring off. I am literally stuck at level 72. (70 and 71 were mostly obtained by being carried in chaos groups with good tanks, otherwise I doubt I would be 70+)

I play mainly maps, I mod them to be supportive to my build as much as possible but no matter how smart I play all it takes is one cold snap group of blobs or a molotov bandit and its game over.

Unless I'm mid run as cold snap starts to be cast I end up stun/freeze locked to death all while spamming my thawing flask. Each use removes one "layer" of being frozen, so if you have 6 of them spam casting it is near impossible for my build to make it out alive.

Even with 68% fire res for whatever reason a molotov bandit still one shots me, every time. Sure its avoidable in a perfect world, however if travelling "down" there is no reaction time with the view distance. Not to mention factoring in lag, desync, rubberbanding.

I know bow rangers are more fragile than most build because we are supposed to stay out of the way as our survival technique however its not always possible to stay out of the way.

Now, clearing a decent modded lvl 60-61 map gives me about 8-13% exp. lvl 62+ gives me closer to 20%, highest I've seen from a single map was 27% (lvl 64, increased size, increased pack, maze)

My risk of death obviously increases as the map lvl does so its hard to say which is better but I tend to get up to 40-50% exp while doing nothing but lvl 60 maps if im really careful. Them comes along some nearly unavoidable one shot and boom all work was lost.

Now sure I can go grind fellshrine and never die, but i get about 1% per run if i'm lucky and become bored out of my mind and end up closing the game anyway.


Now the reason I blame this on my build is I can watch a witch breeze through content that nukes me and never go below half ES, so I'm sure they don't mind the penalty for deaths because its mostly avoidable with a lot of builds. Which means when you do die, you should be punished for being stupid if nothing else, however as a bow ranger its not nearly as avoidable, I couldn't even imagine if I were still EV based.

I wouldn't mind it at all if I could still maintain a slow progression, even 5% reserved of exp gained since last death when killed would suffice. I could then at least see 73 in the far distance while still enjoying fun areas. As it stands I either play the new fun areas (which are still way under my level) and never progress or play areas that are mega easy no threat of death and hope I dont burn out on the game before I hit 73.

Sorry for the rant.

tl:dr - reserve 5% of exp gained since last death, i.e gained 10% exp since last death and die, instead of at 0% be at 5%, die again 5%, gain another 20% and die, be at 10%.

Holy crap! 50% level loss? That is severe by any standard. Save that crap for Dark Souls. At least they give you a chance to get it back. This game just lost me.

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sharazar wrote:

Holy crap! 50% level loss? That is severe by any standard. Save that crap for Dark Souls. At least they give you a chance to get it back. This game just lost me.

15% 3 bars of your exp bar. Doesnt sound like a lot until it takes an hour+ to build that 15%

Bodhe, get more life and your problems will go away. Iron Reflexes might actually be part of you problem too since your are ALWAYS getting hit and you only have 1000 life. Since you are fighting against mobs that are doing high damage your armor is not working at full effectiveness and you will need more life to survive.