My experience with DIABLO III. (Stay awhile and listen..)

"
CharanJaydemyr wrote:

The rest of your arguments I acknowledge and move on. For the most part. I have no intention of getting into the nitty-gritty of what makes a game 'defective', given how many are released these days virtually unplayable without first day patches, etc.


That is a matter for the courts to decide. There is some gray area here. But if you buy any other object that is defective, you can get a refund. Why should it be any different for software?

"
xxnoob wrote:

Blizzard created a bad product in the eyes of many people, they should have every right to get a refund. I have no idea how it works with transactions such as GGG's supporter packs, but I think we should have the right to get refunded also. It's a little trickier, though, if you already got the special goodies that are included in the Diamond pack, diamonds asking for a refund now would be really throwing away precious hours of work.


I would argue that you are wrong here, as the supporter packs would constitute more of a donation than an actual good. Unlike items in D3, which have an actual value, the supporter pack goodies don't impact gameplay and can't be traded for actual money. It would seem similar in effect (though not scope) to asking for a charitable donation back.

"
zeto wrote:

Most things people do have aspects of morality or ethics involved. Most people also have such an innate sense of this, that it's entirely transparent.
So it's not just this... it's very easy to commit fraud, but most people don't.
Likewise, producing a product that is bad upon use or inspection and then preventing people from getting a refund, is ethically dubious.


Unfortunately, moral =/= legal.

"
zeto wrote:

In general, the user should be able to show that they tried it, and the product failed in such a way that they are willing to forego future use or unused portions. The producer can, at best, attempt to show that their product does what was claimed... however the consumer only needs 1 example of why it does not to justify their return.
If a product DID satisfy a consumer, and the consumer no longer has a use for it (eg. no future use or unused portions,) and the producer can show this to be true... then they can justifiably prevent a refund.
This last aspect is why we're having this discussion about D3... The question is, does playing through to inferno/level 60 constitute completion? The user argued no, because the game is fundamentally designed to be played for a long period of time combined with the fact that certain major aspects of the game aren't available until 60... eg. end-game.


I believe that you are morally right here. However, if you use "satisfaction" as a measure of whether or not a product can be returned, then it will be nearly impossible to return a product, as companies will argue that "satisfaction" occurs the moment a product changes hands.

"
zeto wrote:

To that end, combined with errors and other issues, within a reasonable amount of time the user displayed that there exists aspects that are unsuitable, that there are future aspects they are willing to give up, and that the product did not deserve their vote.


That puts the onus of proving that the product deserves a refund on the customer. The Korean Fair Trade Commission (rightly, I believe) does not agree with that sentiment. If you don't give consumers a significant amount of legal leeway, they can be easily trampled by large, corrupt corporations.

"
zeto wrote:

So yes, there are moral aspects, but many of them can be objectively discussed to some degree.


I will disagree with you here completely. Even if a moral standard is "obvious" and held by a vast majority of society, it still does not make it right, or objectively useful in any way. I will also disagree with your assertion that anything moral can be discussed objectively (barring neuroscience), as there are always shades of gray.
Back in black
I hit the sack
I've been too long I'm glad to be back
I find your analysis... peculiar.
If you have account problems please [url="http://www.pathofexile.com/support"]Email Support[/url]
"
zeto wrote:
I find your analysis... peculiar.


How so?
Back in black
I hit the sack
I've been too long I'm glad to be back
"
CharanJaydemyr wrote:

Now we're on the same page, because it's aligning with what zeto seemed to suggest to me. Ethics and morals play a key role in this whole debacle. Blizzard seemed to have none, so the players, dissatisfied and feeling short-changed, reciprocated.



I've had a similar discussion with my guild about me leaving because that was exactly how I felt. They all said that: Well, it's just a game, and it's just money, and they honestly didn't get why I was so upset when my refund got finally declined. And at first, I didn't understand my utter dissatisfaction either. I had to retrace my steps and came up with the following:

---------------------------------------
(this you only need to read if you're really curious. It's long-winded.)

I had given this company a lot of trust, money and patience over the (~15) years. I had had so much fun with some Blizzard games that I had felt I was cheating them by only buying one game, so I purchased a second (or a CE). Just to keep "fun had" and "money spent" fair in my eyes.
"Ethics and morale seem to play a role". For me, definitely so.

When I put in for a refund for the Digital Edition (which has a 72 hours deadline after purchase for a refund), I was a bit late. First, the servers didn't work, then I had better things to do, then the servers didn't work, then I got to play for an hour, then the servers... you get the idea. By the time I put in for a refund, I had played maybe ten hours and was sure: This game was not worth my money. In fact, I felt so dissatisfied that I felt that the company owed me an apology. And the least they could do was give me my money back.
Of course, I was declined. I again attempted to show them my predicament, hoping they would grant me a little bit of that leeway I had granted them - after all, I couldn't help that their servers were only available for a few hours before my deadline for refund ran out.
Of course, I was declined (and again, when I went one step further up the CS ladder).


And at that point, I did not only feel short-changed, I felt like I was a child who had trusted his candy cane to an adult, only to see him pocket it and run away. Of course, legally, they're untouchable. But morally?


And I think that it's really a thing of reciprocation. If the firm treats me fairly, I will treat them fairly. I will treat them fairly even if they have done nothing on their part yet (one side has to do the first step).
But when/if I think that a firm treats me unfairly, I will adjust my stance towards them accordingly.

And consequently, I have cancelled any pending and future contracts with Blizzard. They will not see another dime.

I have instead vowed that my gaming budget will from now on be spent preferably on Indie studios - so that some good hopefully comes from it.
Plus, I channelled my rage in that little article and an extensive product review on amazon (nope, didn't give one star. I aim to be just. Harsh, maybe, but still just, doubly so when 'revenging' myself and my money).


(By the way, I'm also one of those weirdos who buy 'milk from regional farmers' even though it costs considerably more - you know our kind :-))
------------------------------



So, anyway: I think that most people kinda "keep score" subconsciously on how many good things have happened to them, how many bad, and by whom, where they are on the "karma scale". In all walks of life. Even works (someone did a small study on this) in traffic.

And purchasing an expensive game (D3 costs more than average) plus then not being satisfied with it means that the karma scales tip and are justification for either raging, name-calling, getting a refund, or whatever else.
Only when the internal Justice/Karma meter is balanced again, the feeling that one needs to scream in frustration, to stick it to The Man, to badmouth the game, etc. subsides.

And getting a refund is a very civilized way (imo) to balance the karma scales :-D. If, however that refund then gets declined...
12/12/12 - the day Germany decided boys are not quite human.
Last edited by Avireyn#0756 on Jun 4, 2012, 9:52:13 PM
"
Avireyn wrote:
"
CharanJaydemyr wrote:

Now we're on the same page, because it's aligning with what zeto seemed to suggest to me. Ethics and morals play a key role in this whole debacle. Blizzard seemed to have none, so the players, dissatisfied and feeling short-changed, reciprocated.



I've had a similar discussion with my guild about me leaving because that was exactly how I felt. They all said that: Well, it's just a game, and it's just money, and they honestly didn't get why I was so upset when my refund got finally declined. And at first, I didn't understand my utter dissatisfaction either. I had to retrace my steps and came up with the following:

---------------------------------------
(this you only need to read if you're really curious. It's long-winded.)

I had given this company a lot of trust, money and patience over the (~15) years. I had had so much fun with some Blizzard games that I had felt I was cheating them by only buying one game, so I purchased a second (or a CE). Just to keep "fun had" and "money spent" fair in my eyes.
"Ethics and morale seem to play a role". For me, definitely so.

When I put in for a refund for the Digital Edition (which has a 72 hours deadline after purchase for a refund), I was a bit late. First, the servers didn't work, then I had better things to do, then the servers didn't work, then I got to play for an hour, then the servers... you get the idea. By the time I put in for a refund, I had played maybe ten hours and was sure: This game was not worth my money. In fact, I felt so dissatisfied that I felt that the company owed me an apology. And the least they could do was give me my money back.
Of course, I was declined. I again attempted to show them my predicament, hoping they would grant me a little bit of that leeway I had granted them - after all, I couldn't help that their servers were only available for a few hours before my deadline for refund ran out.
Of course, I was declined (and again, when I went one step further up the CS ladder).


And at that point, I did not only feel short-changed, I felt like I was a child who had trusted his candy cane to an adult, only to see him pocket it and run away. Of course, legally, they're untouchable. But morally?


And I think that it's really a thing of reciprocation. If the firm treats me fairly, I will treat them fairly. I will treat them fairly even if they have done nothing on their part yet (one side has to do the first step).
But when/if I think that a firm treats me unfairly, I will adjust my stance towards them accordingly.

And consequently, I have cancelled any pending and future contracts with Blizzard. They will not see another dime.

I have instead vowed that my gaming budget will from now on be spent preferably on Indie studios - so that some good hopefully comes from it.
Plus, I channelled my rage in that little article and an extensive product review on amazon (nope, didn't give one star. I aim to be just. Harsh, maybe, but still just, doubly so when 'revenging' myself and my money).


(By the way, I'm also one of those weirdos who buy 'milk from regional farmers' even though it costs considerably more - you know our kind :-))
------------------------------



So, anyway: I think that most people kinda "keep score" subconsciously on how many good things have happened to them, how many bad, and by whom, where they are on the "karma scale". In all walks of life. Even works (someone did a small study on this) in traffic.

And purchasing an expensive game (D3 costs more than average) plus then not being satisfied with it means that the karma scales tip and are justification for either raging, name-calling, getting a refund, or whatever else.
Only when the internal Justice/Karma meter is balanced again, the feeling that one needs to scream in frustration, to stick it to The Man, to badmouth the game, etc. subsides.

And getting a refund is a very civilized way (imo) to balance the karma scales :-D. If, however that refund then gets declined...


I'm glad to see that Blizzard's little stint didn't work out. Games these days focus too much on nickle-and- diming their customers. If D3 hadn't generated this much anger from former fans, other industries might have tried similar stunts.
Back in black
I hit the sack
I've been too long I'm glad to be back
Please know that "Diablo III" is the one and only game that I have ever requested for a refund my entire life. I have bought bad games before but I have never refunded it. So why Diablo III?

Diablo is not simply a game. The title "Diablo" is a legacy. Diablo II was my childhood. It was one of my first real "online action rpg" game. I am sure millions of people share similar memories like me in one way or another over "Diablo".

When the development of Diablo III was finally announced. It was really happy. I was given hope that I can relive those times like I did with Diablo II. I followed the development for years and fans were fed with sneak peeks, gameplay footages here and there, promises made by game developers about what the game will be like.

When Diablo III is finally released on May 15. First we were faced with server issues and stuff. I am fine with that. When I finally get to play the game and complete it after a few days I was left with nothing to continue. The itemization, the loot drop, the gear grind, everything is a disappointment. The highest difficulty inferno is a cruel joke for an "end-game" content. (Now don't even come telling me inferno is supposed to be difficult or impossible. I am through with that. Unless you have completed inferno act 4 diablo with a melee class and cleared every elite pack then come talk to me about it.)

Diablo III's max level at 60 kills the sense of progression after you hit 60. Diablo II's level 99 gives you the sense of progression and hitting level 99 is no easy feat. Diablo II's drop and itemization gives you a sense of reward. Diablo III's drop is altered and rigged in favour of the auction house. I can't imagine the mess the game will be in when RMAH is released.

Diablo 3 is like Blizzard is taking all those sweet childhood memories you had with Diablo 2, pissed on it and giving us what they call Diablo 3. Diablo 3 DOES NOT DESERVED TO BE NAMED AFTER "DIABLO".

This is why I am so upset and have requested for a refund. Diablo 3 is garbage. It feels as though Blizzard is taking advantage of the title "Diablo", knowing the legacy which Diablo 2 had left behind, they intend to make use of this brilliant title just to turn it into a cash cow with garbage gameplay.
"
zeto wrote:

Not saying the distinction of the line is easy.

The easiest is a statute of limitations... Blizzard is offering a refund within 30 days. I find that reasonable.. it conforms to other lemon laws.

If GGG failed to provide you with physical items, if the physical items were of terrible quality, if you didn't like their custom item and they were unable to fix it, and the cosmetic choices in the future were not to your liking... yeah you'd be justified in getting that money back, or at least a significant portion.


This is an important distinction as well. Did they give you an *unacceptably crappy* kiwi/unique item/physical copy of the game, soundtrack, map, or T-Shirt?

Was the GGGold somehow defective in your eyes, or not what you felt you were promised?

"
A compounding aspect in the case of GGG is that their pre-purchase system is one to get the game to a playable state... not a completed retail product. Your purchase is moreso a donation than an ownership. I feel that distinction is important.


Indeed.

"
Most things you buy at a store, you can return after using it and finding out it's not suitable. Even books, very similar to video games, even have a 14 day return policy from major stores.


Exactly. And investments are different. There, it depends on whether your investment was mishandled or misrepresented. If the product is completed, and fails, well, that's you loss.

Sure, the supporter packs aren't really investments, but arguably somewhere in-between. It's in part a purchasing of goods, so we should look to the quality of the goods provided. Are they what GGG said they would be?
Invited to Beta 2012-03-18 / Supporter since 2012-04-08
"
CharanJaydemyr wrote:
"
zeto wrote:
Most people understand that if you enjoyed something, even if you are done with it, that you should pay for that... only a few will take that opportunity to just get their money back.


...So it's ultimately a moral expectation that we don't all take advantage of this? There are some pretty interesting implications of this if so!


I don't think so. I think the GGG packs are not the same at all as purchasing a finished product based on one's expectations of that product.

Ant to the extent that they are, GGG has so far provided us with those items, and we're not outraged that they aren't up to quality standards.

Perhaps, if you got the soundtrack CD, and its quality was so horrible as to render it absolutely unenjoyable ... and then you found similar issues in all the other things you bought with your Diamond pack ... well, then maybe there would be something to the point. But even then, the thousand dollars is not just for those items, but in large part buying the GGGold and helping the developers build the game.
Invited to Beta 2012-03-18 / Supporter since 2012-04-08
"
Avireyn wrote:

I've had a similar discussion with my guild about me leaving because that was exactly how I felt. They all said that: Well, it's just a game, and it's just money, and they honestly didn't get why I was so upset when my refund got finally declined.


I hope you're able to try again and succeed, if you really feel ripped off by the company. Maybe others here can share how they went about it with you.
Invited to Beta 2012-03-18 / Supporter since 2012-04-08
"
Ronteque wrote:
Diablo 3 DOES NOT DESERVED TO BE NAMED AFTER "DIABLO".

Man, everyone who played Diablo II are two kind of people:
1. Idiots.
2. Guys who said this phrase when played Diablo III.

That's why I'm so excited with Path of Exile, and that's why I want Diablo to be it's final boss.
Last edited by FLYBAT#0392 on Jun 5, 2012, 4:39:31 AM

Report Forum Post

Report Account:

Report Type

Additional Info