Why people so hurt over this expansion

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Xyel wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

a huge pile of bullshit

You are so delusional it's pointless to attempt to explain anything to you.

Sounds like "i have no argument or leg to stand on" after being proven wrong.

The thing about harvest is that i doubt a lot of people really care about the harvest mechanic, it's the crafts what were the great aspect of it. But it indeed had problems that needed to be adressed. But the thing is, there were ways to adress the problems and end up with a great mechanic, but GGG choose to run away from it out of fear.

The main problems of harvest were:

1- It was the strongest progression mechanic in the game by far, making so nothing could compete with it.

2- People could bypass GGG restrictions and trade for the crafts (discord tft).

3- Strong gear was made "too fast" for GGG taste.

So how could they have fixed those problems while keeping gear progression in a better place? One way would've been:

1- Remove harvest crafting from the game (maybe keep the gambling seeds, switch resistances, reforges, t4 seeds, etc).

2- Remove incubators from the game (i doubt anyone cares about them). Replace them with a new incubator that works even with items that are in your inventory(not equipped but you are carrying with you), each item can only have one incubator at the same time.

2a- These incubators would have the harvest augments, annuls and lucky reforges. This incubators would be a global drop and the rarity of a chaos.

2b- The ilvl of the incubators would matter, what this means is that for an ilvl 86 item you would need an ilvl 86 incubator.
2c- The higher the ilvl of the incubator, the more monsters you need to slain.

2d(optional)- Influenced items could have a 2x multiplier on the number of monsters you have to slay (3x if double influenced).

2e(optional)- You only gain souls for monsters you slay yourself to avoid abuse.



This changes would keep what made harvest crafting great while adding limitations to how fast you can upgrade gear, furthermore it also incentive the crafting of low ilvl items (since you can't use low ilvl incubators in high ilvl items), also makes so players cannot just ho warrior upgrade their gear and have to sacrifice inventory space to craft multiple pieces at once, incentives self-crafting and is part of the core game, so it doesn't directly compete with other mechanics.

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Mortyx wrote:

The thing about harvest is that i doubt a lot of people really care about the harvest mechanic, it's the crafts what were the great aspect of it. But it indeed had problems that needed to be adressed. But the thing is, there were ways to adress the problems and end up with a great mechanic, but GGG choose to run away from it out of fear.

The main problems of harvest were:

1- It was the strongest progression mechanic in the game by far, making so nothing could compete with it.

2- People could bypass GGG restrictions and trade for the crafts (discord tft).

3- Strong gear was made "too fast" for GGG taste.

So how could they have fixed those problems while keeping gear progression in a better place? One way would've been:

1- Remove harvest crafting from the game (maybe keep the gambling seeds, switch resistances, reforges, t4 seeds, etc).

2- Remove incubators from the game (i doubt anyone cares about them). Replace them with a new incubator that works even with items that are in your inventory(not equipped but you are carrying with you), each item can only have one incubator at the same time.

2a- These incubators would have the harvest augments, annuls and lucky reforges. This incubators would be a global drop and the rarity of a chaos.

2b- The ilvl of the incubators would matter, what this means is that for an ilvl 86 item you would need an ilvl 86 incubator.
2c- The higher the ilvl of the incubator, the more monsters you need to slain.

2d(optional)- Influenced items could have a 2x multiplier on the number of monsters you have to slay (3x if double influenced).

2e(optional)- You only gain souls for monsters you slay yourself to avoid abuse.



This changes would keep what made harvest crafting great while adding limitations to how fast you can upgrade gear, furthermore it also incentive the crafting of low ilvl items (since you can't use low ilvl incubators in high ilvl items), also makes so players cannot just ho warrior upgrade their gear and have to sacrifice inventory space to craft multiple pieces at once, incentives self-crafting and is part of the core game, so it doesn't directly compete with other mechanics.

I dont think the monster portion has anything to do with it. Its never been an issue killing harvest monsters.

Anyways onto the points...

1 - It 100% is still the strongest progression mechanic by far. Im not really always one for "efficiency" but im going to abuse this shit as long as its in game because it cuts down on the amount of time i have to spend on a characters gearing astronomically.

I came back after 4 years into ultimatum, tried pretty much all avenues of "farming". My conclusion was currency farming is fucking stupid and you should spend all your time in Harvest and Heist. Seems true this league as well even when it isnt on the map device.

2 - I dont think this is an issue.

3 - Absolutely. Harvest completely homogenizes and trivializes itemization. No doubt about that. My progression last league was leaps and bounds faster with it on the device but im about a week, week and a half behind where i was comparatively without it on the device if i were to compare my progression from last league vs this league.

onto point 4 - Harvest should have been removed and had its power distributed else where in a more intuitive way. Its not healthy for the game at all but at least by spreading it out throughout the game its not concentrated to one part of the game.

Its pretty clear the reason they kept it was entirely due to the outrage it would have caused if it were fully removed. They had no choice but to keep it in some form. In the form it is now though, it just completely kills itemization and rockets progression.

The biggest power creep factor in this game right now is entirely on influenced items and harvests determinism. Path of Exile has a huge itemization issue right now that ties into soo many parts of the game.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

long block

A good summary of why you are exactly like them, you aren't objective because your platform is entirely based on assumptions like comparisons to alt regal for T1 life + a good mod.

You want to know how the common pleb alt regal'd things prior? They didn't

That is the comparison you are failing to draw you are comparing pre harvest to post harvest and saying look its better from the perspective of somebody who crafted pre harvest.

Look at it from the perspective of someone who thought crafting was absolute garbage before then used harvest it can't have a comparison because there isn't one. You have a system simple enough that they could interact with it vs a system based entirely only stacked RNG modifiers multiplied by knowledge.

For this type of player probably the last time they crafted if they are a regular league player is delve which had a very similar approach to crafting and similarly successful results albeit far less iterative in its approach.

Note I am not this type of player I'm perfectly happy without Harvest, my crafting problems are largely caused by HC trade being dead by the end of week 1 so you have to source alot of your own mats.

What you are right about 100% is more players should ask for help, GGG should make it clearer how to use these mods but players with no knowledge should actively find out if there is a way to craft a mod on before going ape at no harvest. Also Harvest is the most OP element if it was on zana mod still for 14c or w/e i'd be chaining it.

In said earlier mentioned vein i'm going to ask you how to craft an acceptable warlord's mark ring this isn't a bait question i'm fine if the answers just spam reroll caster (what I have been doing) or alt/regal multimod but maybe i'm missing a sweet strat.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

long block

A good summary of why you are exactly like them, you aren't objective because your platform is entirely based on assumptions like comparisons to alt regal for T1 life + a good mod.

You want to know how the common pleb alt regal'd things prior? They didn't

That is the comparison you are failing to draw you are comparing pre harvest to post harvest and saying look its better from the perspective of somebody who crafted pre harvest.

Look at it from the perspective of someone who thought crafting was absolute garbage before then used harvest it can't have a comparison because there isn't one. You have a system simple enough that they could interact with it vs a system based entirely only stacked RNG modifiers multiplied by knowledge.

For this type of player probably the last time they crafted if they are a regular league player is delve which had a very similar approach to crafting and similarly successful results albeit far less iterative in its approach.

Note I am not this type of player I'm perfectly happy without Harvest, my crafting problems are largely caused by HC trade being dead by the end of week 1 so you have to source alot of your own mats.

What you are right about 100% is more players should ask for help, GGG should make it clearer how to use these mods but players with no knowledge should actively find out if there is a way to craft a mod on before going ape at no harvest. Also Harvest is the most OP element if it was on zana mod still for 14c or w/e i'd be chaining it.

In said earlier mentioned vein i'm going to ask you how to craft an acceptable warlord's mark ring this isn't a bait question i'm fine if the answers just spam reroll caster (what I have been doing) or alt/regal multimod but maybe i'm missing a sweet strat.

Im being entirely objective. If i werent being objective i would say "lol fuck harvest shits broken". Am i doing that ? No. Im coming at it from an entirely objective point of view as a casual from the efficiency and economical point of view. Is my personal opinion "lol fuck harvest its broken", yep. Am i letting that get in the way of me being objective about it ? No. I think harvest as is is certainly too strong still but thats a whole lot less to do with harvest and a whole lot more to do with influences. If you were to apply harvest to non-influenced items only in a vacuum id say that its relatively balanced. Thats not the case.

Before harvest existed that virtually the entire crafting methodology even with things like Fossils and Essences. A big reason why base crafting sucks is clearly because mod pools have not only been expanded, but reweighted with it in consideration. Can tell ya now, back in the day, Virile did not take 400 alterations to see, yet thats what it takes for me to see it now on rings, 400 alterations for seeing a mod is expensive as hell and thats not including aug+regal/scour until you get something good.

There was literally no difference from my old perspective pre-harvest to when i left. Thats my entire point of using that. Thats how crafting functioned until harvest existed. Now that harvest exists, that crafting method isnt acceptable and isnt even usable in most cases.

Im not comparing it out of comparisons sake, im saying that the original crafting method was completely outrageous by comparison and now you have a method of crafting which doesnt even require you to expend currency to roll it and people are subjectively saying "it sucks" when it doesnt.

I was just as casual back than as i am now, i think most people have a pretty skewed view of what a "casual player is".

What do you want on a Warlords mark ring ? Its entirely dependent on what youre looking for.

You can literally force Warlords Mark on a ring by simply rolling caster. The only other caster modifier on a ring is % Increased Cast speed, and since its influenced its going to pick between three things. % Cast Speed, Warlords Mark or Poachers mark. The ideal scenario in all crafting is attributed to 1 thing now. "Did i get 3 good or usable prefixes or suffixes". If the answer is yes then you move on to step 2.

Step 2 consists of how you want to continue crafting your ring. Do you want Life, Es, etc ? The smart thing to do here is to not use ANY exalts to suffix lock the ring. The ideal here would be to continue to farm Harvests for the "Keep suffixes, reforge prefixes roll". If you use that a handful of times youre virtually guaranteed the more common stats like Life/Es/Mana.

IF you do have a lot of expendable currency, you can target it however with a suffix lock + harvest reforge life. Only life mods are Life and Life Leech, Life gain on hit (thanks to elder influence but its fair low chance) which life being much higher weighted, you have a good chance of a decent life roll there. Expendable is entirely up to the individual as well, depending on what you need just going that route for 2 ex is perfectly fine, but if you account for Mastercrafting you could just do the Keep suffix, reforge prefixes harvest and master craft a stat you really need on there.

Theres a lot you can do dependent on the scenarios and what youre looking for.

Another thing you could do is if you have 2 suffixes, with the Warlords Mark, you could suffix lock and veiled chaos orb. Theres a chance your veiled can remove the suffix lock AND add a suffix but thats much more up to RNG. But that could also net you three good suffixes and once you get to that point theres no bricking the item because harvest reforges.

TLDR - The answer is spam caster, which seems pretty easy to do in this scenario especially since your mod pool for it is extremely small. Caster is one of the more common harvest crafts as well, which ranges 4-7 per seed. Plenty of rolls to get something usable.

Edit - Based off your characters it seems your well aware thats the best way to see curse on hit rings. :]

Caster spam was currently what I was doing though i'm getting both fuck all harvests and fuck all caster reforge at the moment. Usually i'm churning out curse rings to sell i've got about 11 influenced rings sat waiting :/

Like the veiled chaos orb option though hadn't thought of that one and has some fairly sweet upsides if you clutch the not too terrible rng, its a bit of an expensive dice roll but at this stage theres nothing to buy anyway so may well head in this direction.

Thanks for the tip nice to see you live by your own mantra

No problem, always happy to help with crafting tips i can help with. Harvest generally has hot and dry streaks. I went on a dry streak last league for life rerolls, eventually i did a Lex Proxima instead of a Haewark and i got an augment and the sacred grove last league, which i sold the grove for pretty big money. (wasnt going for 36/40 or 40/40 no point in using it myself).

If anything this league shows just how difficult itemization is without being able to directly roll for Harvest, it impedes itemization quite a bit.

Like i said in my post, took basically twice as long as it did for me last league to itemize my character.

Game would be a lot better if they figured out what to do with items. What ? Im not entirely sure what, the problems are too deeply rooted at this point but itd probably be better to spread out harvests power and get rid of it.

Theyre partially doing this potentially in 3.16 by changing the veiled modifier grind which is pretty nice because farming jun every league on top of the atlas, on top of delving is likely another reason why people cant bring themselves to play.

I played 1 league of that, now two, where thats the kind of grind you have to do and its pretty tiresome, i fully feel people on that. So that in addition to cutting the atlas are two big ones im looking forward to.

op is baiting, trolling, fishing for reactions, end of story.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Game would be a lot better if they figured out what to do with items. What ? Im not entirely sure what, the problems are too deeply rooted at this point but itd probably be better to spread out harvests power and get rid of it.

i'd like them to be as experimental with drops as they are with crafting, drops is the area where i think PoE has strayed furthest away from a traditional arpg and part of the issue with crafting is that it gets the focus of all the players due to it being the way to progress your gear.

They had brief hints during like heist that we might start getting better drops, the reward rooms produced some fairly good stuff - it wasn't usually top tier or anything but the wands/sceptres in particular are frequently well rolled.

Instead we get another but it won't be done soon like they tell us for pretty much even feature :p I can't understand why they would put this one on the back burner when its so integral.

Gear development should be a forked path with crafting on one side and drops on the other with occasional mechanics/interactions where they crossover. At the moment craftings fork goes pretty far but the drop ones a tiny stubby thing called "usable base" and thats it lol

I had skipped ultimatum because i did not want to play ritual 2.0 so instead I chose to play SSF Standard and progress some characters there and had a lot of fun.
I come to login in 3.15 and all of my characters have been dumpstered. 3 months of play time thrown out the window cus GGG doesn't know how to properly balance.

I made an archmage cremation necro which i loved. Spent a lot of time tweaking and crafting. THe build was strong but by no means OP it could do most content in the game.
It is now DEAD and unplayable.

I flushed out my bladefall blade blast chieftain. Even after it was nerfed before it was still decent maybe 5m sirus dps all said and done. Im now down to 1.4m sirus dps and cant sustain my mana even with clarity and mana nodes taken on tree after 3.15 due to trigger skills raping my mana and the utter raping of blade blast aoe to be completely useless.
It is now DEAD and unplayable.

I managed to harvest craft a 500+ dps phys bow so I made a bleed bow glad, spent a ton of time crafting gear and farming an assailum and it was a very solid char. After 3.15 split arrow does almost no dmg at all I can barely kill a rare in 10 hits and the mana multipliers make it so often i cannot even full charge my snipe
It is now DEAD and unplayable.

I basically feel like GGG said fuck you to my time spent in the game. Fuck you to any build they couldn't figure out how to balance. Basically I wasted my time.

Therefore I have very little drive to bother playing this game much more.
My friends convinced my to give expedition a try and I have. I've never in my years of playing had less fun playing poe than I did this league. After a few weeks I already have spent less time in poe than I ever have in a league and I have very little drive to play at all going forward.