Difference between Blizzard and GGG

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SnowGoon wrote:

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

Speaking of slippery buggers, Bashiok is spectacularly agile with words. I'd be jealous if I didn't understand it's part of his very unenviable job.

This should be fun.

Bashiok: I think it's a symptom of the beta where you're in the part of the game where we're very deliberately guiding players by handing out a skill here, a rune there. It's really a crafted and linear experience to start (both in system introduction and environment) because the first couple hours are the most crucial to a successful and long term experience. We're not in the mindset to drop all of the game systems on you and say "Good luck, sucker!"

To some the approach we're taking is likely a turnoff because they want to feel like they're part of an elite group able to figure out complex and obtuse game systems, and be challenged the second the game begins. I think if they stick with it they'll find that there is a ton of depth and complexity to the game. We put the depth into the gameplay, skill, and decision making itself and not the requirement to overcome the UI or understand how the game even works.

Me: if 'elite group' refers to the people who had no trouble figuring out Diablo 2 without hand-holding at the beginning, then I seriously question the current definition of 'elite', because there were some DUMB MOFOS playing that game just fine. This is surprisingly strong a term for Bashiok. I'm impressed. Of course, I happily wear the mantle of 'elitist' in an age where caring about spelling whenever one writes, thinking for one's self, not being afraid to ask questions and research if one doesn't know, and most importantly, a willingness to experiment and make mistakes in order to learn are all traits of the 'elitist' and not 'the average person.'

Bashiok: If you're one of those players you're going to blaze through Normal, hit Nightmare, and things are going to start feeling really good for you. You just have to understand that not everyone is like you, and we're making the game so a wide range of people can enjoy it.

Me: I find this quite condescending! 'One of those players' indeed. I'm certainly not 'one of those players' -- most of PoE remains virtually arcane to me, the skill tree might as well be the Tree of Sefiroth for all I can understand it. But it intrigues me; its mystery is most likely the same as its secret, and that secret is of course there is no secret. It's huge and tantalising and probably very simple once you understand it.

I doubt I'd blaze through Normal D3. Very much so. I think I'd get bored of it before doing so. And if it bores me the first time, it's not going to be that much more interesting to me the next. I simply do not fit into the imagined player-bases at Blizzard 2.0, which is sad because Blizzard 1.0 made me the way I am, the most it allowed me to throw a sword into the necromancer's hand and use his bone spells for defence, his curses as offence.

I was right. It was fun. Much more fun than Bashiok's explanation for the word 'rocket' being used in Sanctuary, that's for sure. :)

The thing is that even if there is a super complex skill system in place, people use the internet to look up the "best" builds and follow them and it takes all thinking away from the system anyway.

So, the best system would be something that lets you have many options and re-do your skills when you want to. It allows you freedom to try different and new things. Thus, you will not always just choose what is "best" since you can always try that later.

When you lock people into not being able to spec over or limit them, or make things more complex than they need to be, then they will just choose a pre-built cookie cutter from online and never actually play for themselves but follow in the footsteps of an already proven character.

That is my problem with people bashing games calling them too simple just because you don't drop all loot when you die or where you are not stuck with a build unless you start over. In reality those type of things are outdated and not fun anymore to the majority of players and it has nothing to do with difficulty or how smart you are or aren't at all.

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

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SnowGoon wrote:

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

Speaking of slippery buggers, Bashiok is spectacularly agile with words. I'd be jealous if I didn't understand it's part of his very unenviable job.

This should be fun.

Bashiok: I think it's a symptom of the beta where you're in the part of the game where we're very deliberately guiding players by handing out a skill here, a rune there. It's really a crafted and linear experience to start (both in system introduction and environment) because the first couple hours are the most crucial to a successful and long term experience. We're not in the mindset to drop all of the game systems on you and say "Good luck, sucker!"

To some the approach we're taking is likely a turnoff because they want to feel like they're part of an elite group able to figure out complex and obtuse game systems, and be challenged the second the game begins. I think if they stick with it they'll find that there is a ton of depth and complexity to the game. We put the depth into the gameplay, skill, and decision making itself and not the requirement to overcome the UI or understand how the game even works.

Me: if 'elite group' refers to the people who had no trouble figuring out Diablo 2 without hand-holding at the beginning, then I seriously question the current definition of 'elite', because there were some DUMB MOFOS playing that game just fine. This is surprisingly strong a term for Bashiok. I'm impressed. Of course, I happily wear the mantle of 'elitist' in an age where caring about spelling whenever one writes, thinking for one's self, not being afraid to ask questions and research if one doesn't know, and most importantly, a willingness to experiment and make mistakes in order to learn are all traits of the 'elitist' and not 'the average person.'

Bashiok: If you're one of those players you're going to blaze through Normal, hit Nightmare, and things are going to start feeling really good for you. You just have to understand that not everyone is like you, and we're making the game so a wide range of people can enjoy it.

Me: I find this quite condescending! 'One of those players' indeed. I'm certainly not 'one of those players' -- most of PoE remains virtually arcane to me, the skill tree might as well be the Tree of Sefiroth for all I can understand it. But it intrigues me; its mystery is most likely the same as its secret, and that secret is of course there is no secret. It's huge and tantalising and probably very simple once you understand it.

I doubt I'd blaze through Normal D3. Very much so. I think I'd get bored of it before doing so. And if it bores me the first time, it's not going to be that much more interesting to me the next. I simply do not fit into the imagined player-bases at Blizzard 2.0, which is sad because Blizzard 1.0 made me the way I am, the most it allowed me to throw a sword into the necromancer's hand and use his bone spells for defence, his curses as offence.

I was right. It was fun. Much more fun than Bashiok's explanation for the word 'rocket' being used in Sanctuary, that's for sure. :)

The thing is that even if there is a super complex skill system in place, people use the internet to look up the "best" builds and follow them and it takes all thinking away from the system anyway.

So, the best system would be something that lets you have many options and re-do your skills when you want to. It allows you freedom to try different and new things. Thus, you will not always just choose what is "best" since you can always try that later.

When you lock people into not being able to spec over or limit them, or make things more complex than they need to be, then they will just choose a pre-built cookie cutter from online and never actually play for themselves but follow in the footsteps of an already proven character.

That is my problem with people bashing games calling them too simple just because you don't drop all loot when you die or where you are not stuck with a build unless you start over. In reality those type of things are outdated and not fun anymore to the majority of players and it has nothing to do with difficulty or how smart you are or aren't at all.

Every time you say 'people', I am brought back to the gentle condescension of Bashiok's 'those people'. This idea of cookie cutter builds dominating a game is something with which I have a fair bit of trouble. Oh, I know they're prevalent in the larger game, but part of why I like these 'instanced' games is I can be completely myopic and pretend they don't exist. This has worked for me ever since the advent of D2 in 2001.

What you consider 'outdated and not fun anymore' are some of the core appealing factors of Path of Exile, particularly in light of the recent cut-throat mode. And you're on Path of Exile's board -- not sure if you're still aware of that or not.

So calling key factors to a popular play-style here 'outdated not fun anymore' is...I dunno, somewhat out-of-place, to me. It might be true of a lot of other people, 'those people' if you will, but it's not true here.

And that's the beauty of it all. For those who feel cut-throat's style is outdated and not fun, there's other games, other modes. And for those that do enjoy it, there it is.

But if you're going to out-and-out refer to cut-throat's style as 'outdated' and 'not fun', people who disagree and going to do so, and not all of them are going to be as diplomatic as I strive to be. Thus D3 bashing from those who very much dislike being called 'outdated' and being told their idea of fun is 'not fun' and that real fun is what D3 offers. Of course they're going to disagree, and they're going to disagree here because they can. Because they won't be censored for it, or have their threads deleted. Because they know that their opinion isn't that likely to attract dozens of knee-jerk reactions, as they might elsewhere.

It's all a bit chicken and egg, really. Do people with 'outdated' tastes bash D3, as you so gracelessly put it, because they feel it has moved too far from its roots, or has D3 moved so far from its roots that 'outdated' people feel the need to 'bash' it?

Of course, the solution is to forget chickens and eggs and eat whatever the hell you want.

I'd offer a tl;dr but you seem to read quite thoroughly, so I'll just throw this in there: 'outdated' is not a nice thing to call a game on its own board and around the people who really enjoy and appreciate it.

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

Then it would appear an agreement has been reached. :)

That said, I posted much earlier in this thread about how silly I find any sort of comparison between the two companies, and stand by my words now as then.