The future of RT

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grepman wrote:

RT in its core, as a KEYSTONE, is trading in investing in accuracy for never critting.

and THAT is a problem, because in todays game it isnt worth it.

you leaving RT as is and providing some unrelated bonuses isnt changing the main issue. youre just delaying it till the next power creep spurt

Well, then we should give RT bonuses strong enough to be a worthwhile choice. For example, always max damage with attacks fits its theme well (it improves cinsistency even more). There could be other buffs too.

The main problem is, PoE nowadays is too much about "Stack as many multicative midifiers as possible". Crit and auras are kinda important multiplicative midifiers. That's why keystones, sacrificing them (RT & BM) are quite unpopular. Indeed, they fit bugdet build only with current mechanics. But if they're too bad even for them, we have a problem.

sometimes its worth to admit that initial design isnt relevant anymore instead of doing incremental upgrades and trying to fix a corpse with band-aids

if apple followed the path of 'lets throw shit on the wall and see if it sticks', they wouldve never jacked the unix architecture for macos x developed by someone else, and they would still try to maintain the corpse of their 'classic' old garbage macintosh operating systems that had severe design flaws

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Phrazz wrote:

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grepman wrote:

you want to change an 'alternative' that is vastly inferior to other options to something that STILL will be vastly inferior to other options ?

You're seeing everything from a "farming endgame as efficient as possible" point of view.

not at all, that is faulty logic.
I think when a game presents choices, one of them cant be magnitudes of order worse than other alternatives, it ceases being a choice

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And if RT can be a budget solution, bringing players from stopping at T5 maps to beating Shaper, then it's worth it.

RT can do most content in the game. it simply cant compete with other options.
if you think RT tops out at t5 maps, Im not sure what to tell you

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I don't think RT is meant to compete with Crit builds.

crit builds with zero investment are more powerful than RT. its not about competing with billions of gear, budget options are fine to me.

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I think it was always meant as a budget solution. But the gap is too big now. It's all about making that gap smaller.

think of when RT was relevant. then think WHY it was relevant. can you answer why it was so popular vs crit ? I can. lets check our answers.

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See above. The game is "more" than your way of playing.

I dont have a 'way' of playing- Im not about efficiency. I want balanced options. I also think if a keystone such as vaal pact or RT presents a terrible tradeoff, the keystone itself needs to be changed. simple as that.

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We don't see the same problem. You don't want them to do anything, unless they can make RT a valid, endgame choice on par with all other option.

I want it to be a KEYSTONE that someone thinks whether or not he or she wants to take, not a decision made with one glance.

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I just want them to make the gap smaller.

you seem too stubborn to understand that the underlying concept of RT means that once you 'bridge the gap' your way, the gap will automatically widen with power creep introduced in the next content patch. you want to play catch up with something that is a priori stronger and will become exponentially stronger, widening the gap again.

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To make RT "competitive", we have to start adjusting all accuracy and crit in the whole game, so to speak. And that is never going to happen.

nope, there are many other solutions. starting with 'more accuracy' and 'less crit' instead of 'never miss' and 'never crit'.

you know why vaal pact fix works ? because it removed instant leech - the main culprit of vaal pact. the main culprit of RT is 'never crit'.

you just don't want to look at solutions that will require more time but will save this time in the long run vs simply adjusting numbers and trying to 'bridge the gap'

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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grepman wrote:

RT in its core, as a KEYSTONE, is trading in investing in accuracy for never critting.

and THAT is a problem, because in todays game it isnt worth it.

you leaving RT as is and providing some unrelated bonuses isnt changing the main issue. youre just delaying it till the next power creep spurt

Well, then we should give RT bonuses strong enough to be a worthwhile choice. For example, always max damage with attacks fits its theme well (it improves cinsistency even more). There could be other buffs too.

thats wrong way of thinking imo

because the bonus will be more powerful than RT itself is worth. it diminishes the whole point of RT

lets put it this way, you have a yugo vs ferrari

you say well gap is too big lets put yugo on top of a mclaren

well, its not a yugo anymore is it ? whats even a point of a yugo ?

if the tradeoff isnt relevant anymore, it should be re-worked significantly and removed, not have bunch of shit stacked on top awkwardly

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grepman wrote:

not at all, that is faulty logic.
I think when a game presents choices, one of them cant be magnitudes of order worse than other alternatives, it ceases being a choice

The game is FULL of "choices" like this. It doesn't cease being a choice, just because it's a bad choice in late endgame.

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grepman wrote:

RT can do most content in the game. it simply cant compete with other options.
if you think RT tops out at t5 maps, Im not sure what to tell you

I've already told you I'm playing RT this league, and I've done almost everything. But I wasn't talking about me. Nor you.

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grepman wrote:

think of when RT was relevant. then think WHY it was relevant. can you answer why it was so popular vs crit ? I can. lets check our answers.

Sure I can, and I've already told you. Several times. Hell, I even touched upon it in the OP.

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grepman wrote:

I dont have a 'way' of playing- Im not about efficiency. I want balanced options. I also think if a keystone such as vaal pact or RT presents a terrible tradeoff, the keystone itself needs to be changed. simple as that.

And that's what we're discussing here; changing the keystone, not the whole game. Which brings us to:

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grepman wrote:

you seem too stubborn to understand that the underlying concept of RT means that once you 'bridge the gap' your way, the gap will automatically widen with power creep introduced in the next content patch. you want to play catch up with something that is a priori stronger and will become exponentially stronger, widening the gap again.

you know why vaal pact fix works ? because it removed instant leech - the main culprit of vaal pact. the main culprit of RT is 'never crit'.

you just don't want to look at solutions that will require more time but will save this time in the long run vs simply adjusting numbers and trying to 'bridge the gap'

There are TONS of ways to make RT relevant and stronger, while still keeping the "always hit". It's just about thinking outside the box. There are TONS of buffs they can do fitting the "always hit" theme, even though always hitting in itself isn't strong these days at its own.

And it's certainly not about stubbornness. I just think that they designed RT with a gap in mind. As a budget options. That's why I'm all about making the gap smaller, not make it disappear. Crit has always been the ultimate way of scaling your damage in "modern" PoE. But accuracy has become easier to get, crit has become easier. More multiplier have made 100% hit chance without crit less desirable.

So what can we do to make those 100% non-crit hits a better choice? Make those hits stronger, and apply something crits can't.

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grepman wrote:

Spoiler

you seem too stubborn to understand that the underlying concept of RT means that once you 'bridge the gap' your way, the gap will automatically widen with power creep introduced in the next content patch. you want to play catch up with something that is a priori stronger and will become exponentially stronger, widening the gap again.

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Phrazz wrote:

To make RT "competitive", we have to start adjusting all accuracy and crit in the whole game, so to speak. And that is never going to happen.

nope, there are many other solutions. starting with 'more accuracy' and 'less crit' instead of 'never miss' and 'never crit'.

you know why vaal pact fix works ? because it removed instant leech - the main culprit of vaal pact. the main culprit of RT is 'never crit'.

you just don't want to look at solutions that will require more time but will save this time in the long run vs simply adjusting numbers and trying to 'bridge the gap'

I'm sorry, but I'm with @Phrazz on this one.

RT should ALWAYS keep it's "NEVER Crit, never miss" core. A subtle improvement like always dealing weapon maximum damage with attacks not only fits the theme, it also makes sense from a "consistency" point of view.

"Vaal pact fix" works because instant leech needed limits, and TencentGGG preferred to see it removed (and simply kept on a couple items) instead of "making it work" and implementing said limits. I don't want RT to end up the same way.

There are fewer and fewer "meaningful choices" and keystones with "meaningful" drawbacks. I would like RT to keep it's theme.

Let's not be coy, TencentGGG will not remove the accessibility of accuracy and the scaling of Crit chance and multi, due to the ensuing severe backlash from the community...

RT needs to "git gud", yet not up to par/better than EO/Crit. An "up to snuff" level will suffice.

"Always dealing maximum damage with weapon attacks" would at least help bridge that gap.

We can all hope for Crit to be separated from ailments, or for having at least a part of those ailments "enticed" by RT...

And where you see that "Yugo vs Ferrari", we might see an evolution of that idea, like making a Lamborghini from the goddamn Yugo when the right button is pressed - think off the MIB "don't push the big red button". Because we all know that Ferrari got upgraded to a ICBM rocket speed level, so it makes sense to make the Yugo at least "supersonic", if we're to "keep calm, and keep up"...

Not sure what some people are saying that max damage isn't doing much.

Going from average weapon damage to always full weapon damage seems to be a sizable 30-60% increase in damage for certain weapons. Of course this only is possible for hits that aren't max damage to begin with, but it's still sizable.

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Head_Less wrote:

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Phrazz wrote:

Add a small "chance to deal double damage" on it.

+1

Also why in general discussion?

Hahaha, had to comment here. That's gotta be the worst idea ever, remove crit make it stable hits, add another crit to it. Rofl rofl.

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grepman wrote:

thats wrong way of thinking imo

because the bonus will be more powerful than RT itself is worth. it diminishes the whole point of RT

lets put it this way, you have a yugo vs ferrari

you say well gap is too big lets put yugo on top of a mclaren

well, its not a yugo anymore is it ? whats even a point of a yugo ?

if the tradeoff isnt relevant anymore, it should be re-worked significantly and removed, not have bunch of shit stacked on top awkwardly

The "bonus" isnt as huge as you describe it.

First, what's the point of RT? Lose some potential but gain consistency instead ("consistency often trumps potential"). Always dealing the same damage greatly improves consistency too. So it fits RT theme well. You dont miss and always deal max damage, but you lose potential to improve your damage via crit.

Also, let's think again. What weapons have the highest damage range? Right, 2-handers. And they are the shittiest melee achetype ATM. So why dont add a bonus, that benefits them? Ok, lightning damage attackers (stacking added lightning damage) also can benefit from it, but wait - they cant use Elemental Overload then... So they dont gain so much. And if that still feels to powerful, "always deal maximum damage" could be made apply only to physical attacks (and converted damage).

Imo leaving RT as it is when they introcued elemental overload was pretty silly.


"always deal max damage" sounds reasonable and fitting, if it's too much regarding lightening damage, then "your damage is always lucky" or "your attacks always deal maximum damage" or "you attack damage is lucky" could also work ?
After all, people don't take RT for spells.