Time to nerf the EXP penalty on death ?

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Completed 18 Challengeslagwin1980 wrote:
It's been changed once, it won't change again because it supposed to be a learning tool, as in it fucking hurts to loose the xp so you figure out why you are dying and not do it again.

I'm dying because game balance is shit and there is a ton of situations where you can't survive. Enforced clear speed meta pushes you into reckless attacks and many enemies deal an enormous amount of damage giving little to no options to avoid it.

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Completed 10 ChallengesOrbaal wrote:

If you want to avoid a death penalty: YES!
If you want to have fun: no.

Its that simple. If you wanna farm xp, you dont run crazy maps.


So the death penalty is a punishment for players who want to have fun. Makes sense. GGG hates letting players have fun, after all.
Organic chemistry is a weird thing. If you add a spoon of shit to a barrel of jam you'll get a barrel of shit.
I've long held the opinion that the death penalty at the higher levels of this game only serves to discourage players from doing anything dangerous. The problem actually stems from how XP is calculated and distributed. The death penalty remains a static 10% of the XP needed to get the next level, but that doesn't account for the hidden right-left combo that gaining XP at higher levels is - Not only do you need more XP to go up a level but you actually gain less XP per kill on top of that.

A level 94 player running Tier 15 maps needs 218m XP to level up to 95. Once they reach level 95 they need 235m to level up again, a 7.8% increase. Seems reasonable. But because of the XP calculations, they've gone from getting 17% of the mob's XP to 11%, a drop of 35%. When you factor in this hidden tax, the real amount of experience they need isn't 235m but 361.5m, an increase of 66%. This also affects the death penalty - A death at level 94 would cost them 21.8m XP (10%) but that same death at level 95 effectively costs them 66% more, which means 66% more time and 66% more maps have to be spent to recover from it. It's no wonder people don't like taking risks when the penalties get this big and there's no appreciable reward for taking the extra risk.
Last edited by Trylobyte on Jun 14, 2018, 11:32:24 AM
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Trylobyte wrote:
I've long held the opinion that the death penalty at the higher levels of this game only serves to discourage players from doing anything dangerous. The problem actually stems from how XP is calculated and distributed. The death penalty remains a static 10% of the XP needed to get the next level, but that doesn't account for the hidden right-left combo that gaining XP at higher levels is - Not only do you need more XP to go up a level but you actually gain less XP per kill on top of that.

A level 94 player running Tier 15 maps needs 218m XP to level up to 95. Once they reach level 95 they need 235m to level up again, a 7.8% increase. Seems reasonable. But because of the XP calculations, they've gone from getting 17% of the mob's XP to 11%, a drop of 35%. When you factor in this hidden tax, the real amount of experience they need isn't 235m but 361.5m, an increase of 66%. This also affects the death penalty - A death at level 94 would cost them 21.8m XP (10%) but that same death at level 95 effectively costs them 66% more, which means 66% more time and 66% more maps have to be spent to recover from it. It's no wonder people don't like taking risks when the penalties get this big and there's no appreciable reward for taking the extra risk.


Oooooh maths!

At first I am sure my face looked like I just bit into a lemon, but then I read your post and at the end it looked like I just ate a delicious chocolate.

Well explained! Thanks!
I feel there should be a punishment for death, but as others have said it becomes too large and forces you to play a dull game.

It can be adjusted in a few ways in my opinion.

1) adjust the exp loss to be proportional to a fixed amount of time or maps ran.
so this could be , lose the last 5 maps of experience or loose the last 30-60 minutes of experience gained.

2) adjust the map experience penalty and add experience gained.
so this would be to make red maps more appealing to run then safer yellows.
change the minimum % gained from monsters in maps by tier of map.
ie, a white tier has a min exp gained of 2% from mobs, yellow 4% , red 8%.

they could also make running harder combinations of effects grant additional experience from monsters.
so the mobs themselves , being harder, grant more experience.

thus rewarding players to run harder content and be rewarded fairly.


3)
add a vendor recipe with regrets to recover lost experience. currently there is no item sink for regrets.






If death penalty is supposed to be a punishment for failure, then why is there no combat log to learn what specifically killed you?

I've had countless deaths that made me go "huh.. I wonder what killed me" or "how did that mob one-shot me through all that life and overcapped resists?" etc. I learned nothing from them apart from the obvious "get gooder"

Without feedback, death penalty is just a time sink. It's the developers paranoia of people getting to lv100 and quitting, or whatever it is about level 100 that seems to upset them so.

The fact that there is still no combat log after all these years is freaking sad.
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KiadawP wrote:
imagine if every death has a death timer of say 10 sec. Now that will hurt, & encouarge plaxers not to die. More death, more out of action.
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Completed 19 ChallengesDTD_Hiro wrote:
If death penalty is supposed to be a punishment for failure, then why is there no combat log to learn what specifically killed you?

I think these two suggestions would work great together:

Stop the action and tell the player why they fucked up.

Seriously, for all their "old-school" design habits / ideals, it's baffling that one of the most useful (and fun, if the game had a sense of humor) things in old RPGs that we don't see enough of these days, a combat log, isn't a thing in this game.


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Completed 19 ChallengesDTD_Hiro wrote:
It's the developers paranoia of people getting to lv100 and quitting, or whatever it is about level 100 that seems to upset them so.

I believe the reason given was that "racers" were complaining how easy it was to reach it, or they wanted ladders to be more competitive, or some such thing that has no significance to us "normies". Otherwise, could they seriously believe people keep rerolling new chars and keep playing the game because they didn't reach level 100? I don't think so. I like to think they're smarter than that.
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- Self-proclaimed king of level 172 budget builds -
- Theorycrafter extraordinaire (theoretically) -
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I felt the need to make a separate post to highlight something:

I'm a returning player (played & quit around 1.0.0, returned during Bestiary) and, of all the things that bothered me in the game all those years ago, the one thing that pushed me over the edge and made me quit was the XP loss.

Despite not being too high level, the feeling of "2 steps forward, 1 step back" was too emotionally draining for me at the time. Nothing I hate more than losing progress in a game whose main draw / selling point to me is constant progress.

Sad to see this aspect of the game hasn't changed in the 4+ years I've been absent.
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- Self-proclaimed king of level 172 budget builds -
- Theorycrafter extraordinaire (theoretically) -
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Pretty much i also gave up as well because it was the reason 4 years ago i quit the game because i forgotten about the xp loss on death. Who cares if we're level 100. Most players play this game solo anyway.
I just uninstalled the game (again) for this reason (again).
Maybe I'll be back in a few weeks, maybe in a year or two, maybe never. And if I do come back, I know the reasons I'll quit again will be the same: Krillson's ideology blocks GGG from ever working on the issue.
Its sad when a char you like playing becomes a waste of time. Maps give like no xp compared to their lvl

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