1 shot 95% of game content

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charley222 wrote:

HeavyMetalGear you say ( YET the OP seems to suggest it should not be like that where even the fodder and all the in-between mobs are powerful like actual map bosses. It does not work that way in ARPGs, and PoE's developers understand that because it would make progression sluggish instead of fluid.)

i think you exaggerate ) i never ask to make white mobs powerful like actual map bosses lol but asking they have highter resistance vs some type of dps

I exaggerated for a reason, because had I said, "YET the OP seems to suggest it should not be like that where even the fodder and all the in-between mobs are powerful like champions." you would have disagreed, anyway, or found some ridiculous reason to disagree no matter what I said (or say).

"

charley222 wrote:

BTW you say (It does not work that way in ARPGs) are you really sure about this oO :) btw here 1 little exemple and have many other arpg having this is just the basic to have some good monster http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5g-vampire.shtml btw poe have this but the monster resistance are just very to low for the dps this game have now , so if monster have high resistance is very useful to be versatile

The majority of ARPG developers, more so than not, at least 95% of the time (to be fair, okay?) make it where fodder is weaker than champions and champions are weaker than actual map bosses so gameplay is not sluggish and feels more fluid as a you progress.

And just because fodder seems more rewarding than champions or actual map bosses (the logic behind that assumption explained on page 5) does not justify making fodder stronger, neither is it a good idea to buff fodder, because buffed fodder = a sluggish game (when the game is getting bigger and bigger almost every new league). I venture to say PoE's world is going get so big one day the temporary leagues will have to last a month longer just to finish the core game and then spend the remaining time to enjoy the rest of it afterward.

Furthermore, even if GGG upped the resistances a bit for trash mobs and champions, my point still stands that fodder is (should be and always will be) weaker than champions and champions weaker than actual map bosses no matter what.

As for the link you linked, it proves absolutely nothing (read the above stated regarding my point in the event GGG's developers upped the resistances for trash mobs). Give me a broader range of cited sources rather than a small sample and maybe your argument(s) will be more credible over mine.

i never ask white mods need to be stronger of magic or rare mods i`m just suggesting some type of mobs have highter resistance exemple white fire mods have 15 res or 20% vs fire damage magic 30% and rare 40 % for me i have np for some mods have dps Immunities
exemple snake have poison Immunities , having this will make player versatile and will have more of one type of damage and not only focus to only maximise 1 type of damage and have 1 attack or they will not be able to kill everything ,exemple the Righteous Fire build will need to do a bit more compare just running in the map and need to attack or use spell vs the mods having fire resistance and this will reduce the 1 shot build clean all the map . i think is not looking good for the game too one shot and kill a most everything , my opinion :)

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

The majority of ARPG developers, more so than not, at least 95% of the time (to be fair, okay?) make it where fodder is weaker than champions and champions are weaker than actual map bosses so gameplay is not sluggish and feels more fluid as a you progress.

I agree, that should be the case. And rewards should appropriate.


However, some builds can kill even Shaper (the toughest boss in the game) in less than one second, before he can use any ability. And no, they dont have full mirror-tier gear.
That's a big problem, actually. Player's DPS can scale way too high.

"

HeavyMetalGear wrote:

The majority of ARPG developers, more so than not, at least 95% of the time (to be fair, okay?) make it where fodder is weaker than champions and champions are weaker than actual map bosses so gameplay is not sluggish and feels more fluid as a you progress.

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

I agree, that should be the case. And rewards should appropriate.

It IS the case far as difficulty goes, again, "where fodder is weaker than champions and champions are weaker than actual map bosses so gameplay is not sluggish and feels more fluid as a you progress."

As for the rewards aspect of killing things in PoE goes, you obviously ignored my counterargument that explains exactly WHY good items are not focused on champions and actual map bosses alone.

Go back to Page 5, thoroughly re-read the 7th post down, and then get back with me.

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

However, some builds can kill even Shaper (the toughest boss in the game) in less than one second, before he can use any ability. And no, they dont have full mirror-tier gear.
That's a big problem, actually. Player's DPS can scale way too high.

As I said on page 5, the 3rd post down, "Even IF GGG nerfed the game all to Hell (arguably, more than it already has been with ES builds, poison damage, etc.), players are still going to find something to exploit, always! The sooner you realize that, the better off you're going to be. The developers can only nerf/balance a game so much until they come to writing on a brick wall that says, "Hey, stop, because over-nerfing / over-balancing a game is not good, either! It may drive players away!"

followed by "Conclusively, what you FAIL to understand throughout this entire discussion is I AM on your side regarding OP 1-shot builds, yet my general point to you is get over it and just run your own builds that do not conform with the metas! How hard is that to understand?"

The real problem, between you and the OP, is you guys having a problem with an alleged problem you are not forced to conform with. There is always somebody out there smarter than somebody else, and no matter what GGG nerfs, there is always going to be a 'most powerful build' over other builds for as long ARPGs exist.

Therefore, the only way the problem will ever be resolved is when GGG finds a way to nerf the human brain to no longer have the smarts to abuse and break their systems, and is that going to happen anytime soon? No.

OR, you know, people can fix an alleged problem by not conforming with one (as said before, but this time, worded a little differently). Simple, right? No, and that is why people will not stop conforming with certain problems, because they are enslaved by trends, sometimes without even knowing they are enslaved by them.

If "fodder" (= trash) yields better loot and higher XP (and you think it should be the case), and are much easier and safer to kill (you think it should be the case too), then WHY player should bother with champions and bosses at all? Why risk and waste your time on unrewarding content (=bosses), when you can just farm easy AND rewarding (in terms of both loot ans XP) cannon fodder all the time???
Tht's what happens with PoE. A reward is inappropriate to challenge, often. And obviously, players tend to skip content, that doesnt reward them appropriately for time and risks involved.

If you cant understand that, we have nothing to talk about, even!

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HeavyMetalGear wrote:

The real problem, between you and the OP, is you guys having a problem with an alleged problem you are not forced to conform with. There is always somebody out there smarter than somebody else, and no matter what GGG nerfs, there is always going to be a 'most powerful build' over other builds for as long ARPGs exist.

With such approach, you'll never make an interesting, diverse and balanced game. Because you "a-priori" think that it's impossible to fix all "exploits", to balance game good enough to create more or less even environment for different builds.

Ever heard of DoTA2? This game has the highest $$$ prizes in competive tournaments above all other games (24kk prize fond for recent tournament!). It has more that 100 heroes to choose from, each with his unique abilities, stats and playstyle. And more that 90% of them were picked at that tournament. Do you really think players will pick something "for fun" when millions of bucks are involved? Or maybe you think they arent competent enough (despite they train their gaming skills day and night, to even have a chance to go there)?
Of course, they pick ONLY for victory, and they ARE incredibly competent at DoTA2. So why they dont pick FOTM meta pick 100% of the time? The answer is simple - because DoTA2 is BALANCED well enough, and almost all picks can be great in certain situations.

So why THEY (Valve + Icefrog) CAN make the game balanced and diverse, yet you think it's impossible for PoE? Why THEY can do it even despite millions of player, many of those are much smarter, skillful and spend more time to play, try to abuse the game every day?

"By my hand, the inert is given life.
By my hand, that which rots is reborn.
There is nothing that cannot be changed.
Nothing."

Shaper

Take there words as the golden rule for game development, GGG.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

With such approach, you'll never make an interesting, diverse and balanced game. Because you "a-priori" think that it's impossible to fix all "exploits", to balance game good enough to create more or less even environment for different builds.

Fixing all exploits is indeed possible ONLY if GGG nerfed the whole system completely to the ground, and as I have argued before, THAT is NOT good, either, and WILL equally as much, if not, more so, drive players away, and if you are not understanding THAT, you are right; we have NOTHING to talk about!

Despite what some players may believe due to certain big nerfs that were made, GGG's developers WANT players to 'experiment' with builds and 'break' shit. WHY?! Because it is fun! If GGG over-balances the game, what fun is the game going to be? GGG knows if they do that they will LOSE.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

Ever heard of DoTA2? This game has the highest $$$ prizes in competive tournaments above all other games (24kk prize fond for recent tournament!). It has more that 100 heroes to choose from, each with his unique abilities, stats and playstyle. And more that 90% of them were picked at that tournament. Do you really think players will pick something "for fun" when millions of bucks are involved? Or maybe you think they arent competent enough (despite they train their gaming skills day and night, to even have a chance to go there)?
Of course, they pick ONLY for victory, and they ARE incredibly competent at DoTA2. So why they dont pick FOTM meta pick 100% of the time? The answer is simple - because DoTA2 is BALANCED well enough, and almost all picks can be great in certain situations.

Comparing DoTa 2 to PoE is irrelevant; PoE's progression system through a Skill Tree is a lot different than just using a set of skills (or acquired skills along the way) like in DoTa 2. In PoE, it is called 'take the shortest and best path possible' for whatever build you are trying to create. That kind of system DOES NOT exist in DoTa 2. Two totally different games; two totally different systems. Grow a brain.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

So why THEY (Valve + Icefrog) CAN make the game balanced and diverse, yet you think it's impossible for PoE? Why THEY can do it even despite millions of player, many of those are much smarter, skillful and spend more time to play, try to abuse the game every day?

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

"By my hand, the inert is given life.
By my hand, that which rots is reborn.
There is nothing that cannot be changed.
Nothing."

Shaper

Of course "There is 'nothing' that cannot be changed" because 'nothing' is nothing, and you cannot change 'nothing'. Ah, pet peeves. Anyway...

Citing the Shaper's words DOES NOT mean a thing because I never said nothing can be changed (the wording makes no sense, anyway). Learn how to read before replying. Pay closer attention to my use of words.

Things CAN be changed, YET I said 1. No matter what GGG 'changes' there are STILL players our there who are going to exploit the system! and 2. The only way the 'best build over other builds' problem will be solved is if GGG nerfed everything to the ground (the Skill Tree, etc.), and all that will do is create a BIGGER problem AND drive more players away than just leaving the game the way it is now!

What part of any of that do you and the OP NOT understand?

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

If "fodder" (= trash) yields better loot and higher XP (and you think it should be the case), and are much easier and safer to kill (you think it should be the case too), then WHY player should bother with champions and bosses at all? Why risk and waste your time on unrewarding content (=bosses), when you can just farm easy AND rewarding (in terms of both loot ans XP) cannon fodder all the time???
Tht's what happens with PoE. A reward is inappropriate to challenge, often. And obviously, players tend to skip content, that doesnt reward them appropriately for time and risks involved.

If you cant understand that, we have nothing to talk about, even!

I just don't buy this "players skip all bosses" myth.

I buy that some players build dedicated "trash clear" characters just to farm stuff.
I buy that some players unfortunatly build shitty characters that fail to kill bosses, or die too easily against them.
...
But I heavily doubt this is the majority.

I haven't skipped a single boss since 3.0 launch, and I have killed them all in reasonable time.
I have gotten some very valuable drops from bosses, and tons of maps and mid-value items.
And I'm certainly not the only player doing so.

Even IF there is an imbalance in risk vs reward, I would still kill them.
What's the point of collecting all this shiny pixel money and loot if I don't put it to use?

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Peterlerock wrote:

I just don't buy this "players skip all bosses" myth.

I buy that some players build dedicated "trash clear" characters just to farm stuff.
I buy that some players unfortunatly build shitty characters that fail to kill bosses, or die too easily against them.
...
But I heavily doubt this is the majority.

I haven't skipped a single boss since 3.0 launch, and I have killed them all in reasonable time.
I have gotten some very valuable drops from bosses, and tons of maps and mid-value items.
And I'm certainly not the only player doing so.

Even IF there is an imbalance in risk vs reward, I would still kill them.
What's the point of collecting all this shiny pixel money and loot if I don't put it to use?

Do you know what is the most popular way to grind in Harbinger league? It's Beachhead rotations. And Beachhead map doesnt contain bosses, its "final encounter" consists of huge waves of trash mobs coming at you.
Players already choose the most rewarding and easy content, where they dont need to kill bosses, just "fodder".

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

Players already choose the most rewarding and easy content, where they dont need to kill bosses, just "fodder".

It's not the abscence of a "boss", it's the obscene amount of XP this map provides.