You go...girl?

You choose to use certain words to describe certain aspects of reality. They choose to use other words.

You want to make them use your words. They want to make you use their words.

You are all acting as if your words, which are just a fart in the wind as far as objective, material reality is concerned, will somehow change that reality.

What's even more astonishing, you're acting as if there is a realistic possibility of convincing the other side to start using your words.

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Bars wrote:

You choose to use certain words to describe certain aspects of reality. They choose to use other words.

You want to make them use your words. They want to make you use their words.

I do not choose, I'm speaking about biology and science. I'm speaking about facts and reality that have been proven time after time.

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Bars wrote:

I suggest that everyone keep hitting everyone else over the head with their particular set of subjective definitions and keep insisting that everyone else accept their definitions as the only true definitions, this should be fun and productive.

No thanks. I'm probably done. Unless Sarah or Peng explicitly say that they can be convinced by providing sufficient documentation.

Odds are good I won't be convinced that MTF transgenders are on 100% equal footing with women either, but I am willing to be if they provide me with documentation that states hormonal changes will completely devolve male lung, heart and leg size to match typical female ratios.

I'm willing to begin digging to provide documentation. And I'm willing to look at documentation they provide. But at this point I am uncertain if it will come to such an agreement.

I'll simply leave the statement that, if the current rate of MTF transgender winning (landslide victories) continues, naturally born women in these events will begin to question the validity and officialism of them. Eventually they won't participate and will create offshoot events further segregated and "naturally-born women only".

To clarify: This motivation for further segregation (women leaving on their own after losing to transgenders, not sporting events creating a new league) is not a good thing. It will impact relations with transgenders negatively.

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Bars wrote:

You choose to use certain words to describe certain aspects of reality. They choose to use other words.

You want to make them use your words. They want to make you use their words.

You are all acting as if your words, which are just a fart in the wind as far as objective, material reality is concerned, will somehow change that reality.

What's even more astonishing, you're acting as if there is a realistic possibility of convincing the other side to start using your words.

Yes, why even use language when any word can mean anything. It's all subjectively defined and can be arbitrarily redefined at a whim. And thus all communication disintegrates and is replaced with people blindly shouting at each other.

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Deadpeng wrote:

Let me just repeat this. If you think people do not behave in this way, in Asia plenty of us do. As I always say to a lot of my American friends, people in Asia think really differently. Even our definition of 'respect' is quite different from yours. And I have not had an American friend who are surprised after visiting China. What I mean by the term 'different in culture' is really about how even our definition of right and wrong is different. Right now I refuse to believe in you until you have exposed yourself to Chinese culture, which I admit, is unreasonable since not everyone knows the language or has the ability to travel.

Yes, there are enormous cultural differences.

When and if I visit China, I will have that in mind and I will do my best to respect the culture of the country I'm visiting, not because I give a fuck about it, but because I expect to have many problems if I don't. What's more, I think it's perfectly reasonable of the host country to expect me to conform to its culture. If you don't like it, don't visit - fair enough, that makes sense.

I won't actually think like them, but I will keep that to myself.

We start having a problem when someone who lives in Assfart, Dumbfuckistan, demands that I conform to his particular notions.

We start having an even greater problem when someone arrives to my country from Dumbfuckistan and demands that I conform to his notions.

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Mythabril wrote:

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Bars wrote:

You choose to use certain words to describe certain aspects of reality. They choose to use other words.

You want to make them use your words. They want to make you use their words.

You are all acting as if your words, which are just a fart in the wind as far as objective, material reality is concerned, will somehow change that reality.

What's even more astonishing, you're acting as if there is a realistic possibility of convincing the other side to start using your words.

Yes, why even use language when any word can mean anything. It's all subjectively defined and can be arbitrarily redefined at a whim. And thus all communication disintegrates and is replaced with people blindly shouting at each other.

appeal to extremes

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diablofdb wrote:

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sarahaustin wrote:

The longer one is on hormones the more one is genetically going to be like the gender one identifies as. If i go on HRT i will have less muscle mass, slower hair growth and different fat distribution. And if a trans woman had SRS she will not produce any testosterone.

If identity was all there was to it then obviously you would be totally correct, but read up on what hormones change, especially in trans women, then you might agree with me that trans women in womens sports is fine. Now you can still argue about bone structure as thats the only thing hormones cant change but surgery could.

still not making you a woman. You were born as a man you remains a man, you were born as a woman you remain as a woman. There are only 2 gender, and that is real biology, just basic science fact.

You can treat your body like one of Frankenstein's experience, but you will still remain the same internally and biologically.

@Sarah: Hey, you're acknowledging that hormones are real. That's good. And I mostly agree with what you said here.

However, I don't know how much time is long enough. Let's put it this way: Imagine a professional athlete admitted to anabolic steroid use. What would the appropriate ban time be between usage and return to competition? Is a lifetime ban for anabolic steroid use appropriate? Well, testosterone is literally an anabolic steroid.

@diablofb: Um, no. Fuck no. Anything real is subject to modification by procedures shown to actually effect it. Whether you consider such changes to be "Frankenstein treatments" or not is irrelevant, a change is a change — and by calling it an abomination from the normal you are implicitly conceding things are not "still the same biologically and internally."

The great human trait is the ability to take what nature gives us and, using the laws of nature, change that situation into a new, artificial one. Yes, of course chromosomes determine someone's starting sex and most of their gender, and I totally disagree with any claim that gender can be changed through thought alone. But we can tinker with anything that makes a man a man or a woman a woman. Technology can overpower genes.

simply stating that there are only two sex and you can't become one another biologically