The Son of God:

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kuukkeli wrote:

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Kamchatka wrote:

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kuukkeli wrote:

Could you please explain why I should worship a being that has created billions of people only to send them to everlasting torment in a lake of fire? Omniscient creator is responsible for all the choices his creations do so each and every man god sent to hell never had any chance to avoid that fate. If I believed in your god I'd be at war with him.

You will have to find a follower of John Calvin to answer this question; since Catholics, Orthodox Christians and most protestants do not subscribe to this type of belief about God.

So the christians you mentioned don't believe that 1) god is omniscient and 2) god created the existence form nothingness? Or do you just mean that these sects have cherry picked the bible enough and practiced enough intellectual dishonesty to sweep the problems under the carpet?

No, I meant John Calvin taught that God created most humans to get to hell, on purpose, because, according to John Calvin, God is insanely angry and vengeful.

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Kamchatka wrote:

Most Christians around the world (ie Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches) teach that going to heaven is a free will choice.

A smaller group of Christians, called protestants, are broken down into 20,000-30,000 different sects and do not agree on what constitutes going to heaven/hell. You would have to research each protestant sect to get a specific answer.

It's not that difficult, nor as fragmented as you envision it. Also it's not called "sect", but rather denomination.

In terms of going to heaven, or rather "salvation"...

Catholic
baptism, good works, and adherence to God's word = salvation

Protestant
faith alone = salvation

Under Protestantism, some denominations believe baptism is required for salvation, while others do not. Most people who identify as Christian will be Protestant, because Catholics identify as Catholic.

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cipher_nemo wrote:

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Kamchatka wrote:

Most Christians around the world (ie Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches) teach that going to heaven is a free will choice.

A smaller group of Christians, called protestants, are broken down into 20,000-30,000 different sects and do not agree on what constitutes going to heaven/hell. You would have to research each protestant sect to get a specific answer.

It's not that difficult, nor as fragmented as you envision it. Also it's not called "sect", but rather denomination.

In terms of going to heaven, or rather "salvation"...

Catholic
baptism, good works, and adherence to God's word = salvation

Protestant
faith alone = salvation

Under Protestantism, some denominations believe baptism is required for salvation, while others do not. Most people who identify as Christian will be Protestant, because Catholics identify as Catholic.

Not all Protestant sects believe the "faith alone" doctrine. Some protestant sects do not even believe in hell. You cannot lump 20,000-30,000 sects together in such a way, at least not honestly.

World-wide Most people who identify as Christian will identify as Catholic or Easter orthodox (although they also identify as Catholic technically). There really aren't as many protestants as one might think, comparatively.

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MonstaMunch wrote:

Do you eat shellfish? Wear clothes made from mixed fabrics? Kill children who are disobedient to their parents? Think rape victims should be forced to marry their rapists?

I don't wear clothes made from linen and wool. In fact, the shirt I'm wearing right this very moment is 100% cotton.

I don't eat shellfish.

I've never had occasion to be first-hand witness to a son such as is described in the passage I believe you are referring to. Also, that is a gross oversimplification you state/imply in that question.

Also, the next issue you refer to with the rape victims, is actually dealt with quite nicely. It allows for the father of the woman to refuse for her to be married. The spirit of the law in this case is that the person who rapes the woman is obligated to then take care of her for life. This is meant as punishment for the rapist, not the rape victim. And of course she isn't required absolutely to marry him as is shown here:

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“If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride price for virgins."

- Exodus 22:16-17

Additionally, it specifies "a virgin". Somehow, in modern day society, I think you'd be hard pressed to run into this case.

This may also be of interest to you:

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22 e“If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman. dSo you shall purge the evil from Israel.
23 “If there is a fbetrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor’s wife. dSo you shall purge the evil from your midst.
25 “But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. 26 But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor, 27 because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.

- Deuteronomy 22:22-27
The obvious difference in the type and target of punishment here is consent. If a woman who is betrothed or married lies with a man willingly (aka does not cry out for help or reject him) then they are both to be stoned. If the man forces himself on her and she cries out for help but is still raped, then only the the rapist is to be stoned to death. I have a feeling that even hardcore feminists would agree with this one. Put to death any man who commits rape. Yup, I'm sure they'd be on board.

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MonstaMunch wrote:

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Darkfyre wrote:

Do not obey man's law over God's when the two conflict; but neither attempt to escape the punishment of man for doing so.

If you had followed this, you'd be in prison already.

Apparently not.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

snip

How foolish are your words and your thoughts. A man reaps what he sows. Think about this and repent.

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kuukkeli wrote:

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Kamchatka wrote:

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kuukkeli wrote:

Could you please explain why I should worship a being that has created billions of people only to send them to everlasting torment in a lake of fire? Omniscient creator is responsible for all the choices his creations do so each and every man god sent to hell never had any chance to avoid that fate. If I believed in your god I'd be at war with him.

You will have to find a follower of John Calvin to answer this question; since Catholics, Orthodox Christians and most protestants do not subscribe to this type of belief about God.

So the christians you mentioned don't believe that 1) god is omniscient and 2) god created the existence form nothingness? Or do you just mean that these sects have cherry picked the bible enough and practiced enough intellectual dishonesty to sweep the problems under the carpet?

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Darkfyre wrote:

That's like if a single ant were to say "I'm at war with the universe", only probably more absurd than even that analogy.

1: Universe isn't conscious being, your god is.
2: Oppressor being more powerful doesn't make oppression any more acceptable.

But anyways, try to enjoy this life; it's most likely the only one you have. I'm done arguing in this thread.

The purpose and nature of analogies may be lost on you, if you truly think the way you just replied.

I have a feeling you don't actually think that way, though, and perhaps were just attempting to be contrary.

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Darkfyre wrote:

Do not obey man's law over God's when the two conflict; but neither attempt to escape the punishment of man for doing so.

So what happens when your gods own words conflict?

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Thou shalt not kill

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Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

This is a common misconception among attackers of scripture.
The commandment is to not commit murder.

See the original Hebrew https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill to clear up the misunderstanding.

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Kamchatka wrote:

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cipher_nemo wrote:

In terms of going to heaven, or rather "salvation"...

Catholic
baptism, good works, and adherence to God's word = salvation

Protestant
faith alone = salvation

Under Protestantism, some denominations believe baptism is required for salvation, while others do not. Most people who identify as Christian will be Protestant, because Catholics identify as Catholic.

Not all Protestant sects believe the "faith alone" doctrine. Some protestant sects do not even believe in hell. You cannot lump 20,000-30,000 sects together in such a way, at least not honestly.

World-wide Most people who identify as Christian will identify as Catholic or Easter orthodox (although they also identify as Catholic technically). There really aren't as many protestants as one might think, comparatively.

You have "good works", "faith", and "baptism". There are only so many combinations you can make with those three. In general, Catholics pretty much believe in needing all three, while Protestants believe in only needing "faith". Some Protestant denominations add "baptism" to that. Remember, we're talking requirements for salvation, not what is just encouraged by any denomination in general. All three are pretty much encouraged in every Christ-based church.

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Darkfyre wrote:

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

snip

How foolish are your words and your thoughts. A man reaps what he sows. Think about this and repent.

Common, be honest, you didn't giggle even a little bit? Don't worry I won't tell Satan. :)

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cipher_nemo wrote:

You have "good works", "faith", and "baptism". There are only so many combinations you can make with those three. In general, Catholics pretty much believe in needing all three, while Protestants believe in only needing "faith". Some Protestant denominations add "baptism" to that. Remember, we're talking requirements for salvation, not what is just encouraged by any denomination in general. All three are pretty much encouraged in every Christ-based church.

Four: You missed repentance.

Also Most of my family are the protestant denomination "Assembly of God" who do not just believe in baptism & Faith alone. I was raised Southern Baptist, another protestant denomination who also do not believe in "faith alone", although they do not believe in baptism.

And you cannot ignore the thousands of non-denomination protestant sects who teach a wide variety of stuff: like the Church of Mars founded by Rob Bell, who teaches there is no hell. Or the mike Murdock Wisdom Foundation Church, who teaches that Christianity is a get rich quick scheme.

And you are misrepresenting Christianity, almost all Christians are Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, who share beliefs on salvation. And the largest protestant denomination is the Anglican church, who share the Catholic belief on salvation. And the 2nd biggest protestant church is "Assembly of God" Pentecostal church, who are very close to Catholics on salvation beliefs.