"Life sucks" =! "Please nerf ES"

"
marremurt wrote:
im trying to understand, heres a complain how weak ES is? but im pretty sure i readed last day how OP ES is and even a video shows how easy it was as en ES build.


Where did I complain about ES being weak? All I said was that it wasn't OP because it alone doesn't make you invincible. If you have perfect gear you can make pretty much any build work defensively, but ES is actually in a decent place if you have normal quality gear. By that I mean you can be safeish with maybe 15 ex of gear. If you want to reach that same level of safety with life based you're going to be paying far more than that.

My ES chars feel about as tanky as they ought to be for the investment, is what I mean. If I invest many ex and the majority of my nodes into defense I should not be dying much unless I stand in the bad, which is only true for ES. Anything life based feels paper thin by comparison to ES. Ergo, I feel like ES is about right and didn't need any kind of nerf, while life needed a buff. Hence why I am confused the opposite happened.

Edit; and if you want to claim ES is op, remove vinktar, ToH, and Vaal pact and watch your defenses drop to sub par levels. Those are the real offenders, not ES. Defense in this game overall is pretty weak, ES is just the closest way to get near to being decent.
Last edited by MeWhenum on Nov 30, 2016, 11:46:39 AM
I'm pretty sure this is their standard operating procedure.

Is something too weak? Yeah, we will nerf everything else that made you feel that way. You should be suffering!

Spoiler
It is completely intentional that new acts/monsters are always "overtuned" and then later toned down. "Better to be more challenging then too boring" is the general philosophy around here.

Oddly enough new skills usually follow the opposite pattern, starting strong and then getting gutted. Not just nerfed, but gutted. Remember the line about vaal spark! Nerfed in "every way possible." Hah. GGG cracks me up sometimes.
"
Draegnarrr wrote:
"
MeWhenum wrote:
Okay, so unless I am misreading something, life did not get buffed *at all* as far as I could see, yet ES got some nerfs in the form of energy from within/soulstrike/stasis map mod.

Uh...what?

Even with crazy ES you can still get one shot by random stuff. Über Izao for example has what...base 6K physical damage or something? Even stuff like magaera is dangerous to even defensively geared players. I honestly felt like ES was/is just about how strong defenses ought to be to be useful but not overpowered. Life on the other hand always feels really squishy to play. The solution is to nerf CI and ignore life based? Seriously? I really don't understand this. I feel like GGG just went and watched a video of someone using a super cheesy optimal 2000 exalt build then concluded based on that that ES was OP and everything else is balanced and fine.

Does anybody else feel like this is the total wrong solution to the ES/life discrepancy? Last I checked if you have one functional thing and one garbage thing, you buff the garbage thing, not nerf the functional thing. Life is simply not cutting it and needs help.


Couple of points, I think your overall point is totally correct life sucking doesn't = nerf ES btw before i say anything else just that some of your logic here is off.

Izaro can hit for ~6k, however any phys hit has to be survived by an evade character so you'll never see a physical attack do that much more unless it was 100% designed to be physically dodged by the player, this effectively pushes ES because a sponge is safer than occasional one-shot especially as huge hits from bosses have significant cooldown between them.

energy from within is literally a 6% ES drop but from 300% it really isn't that much of an issue. Soulstrike got a much more significant nerf but having recharge that started 0.5s after taking damage and couldn't be interrupted (occultists with soul strike) was pretty overpowered. Like imagine if you had a 10k life pool and after not taking damage for 0.5s you got 2k/s regen until full, that is what soul strike did, then people pretend that no lifepots is a hindrance when you can replace them with a variety of absolutely enormous buffs :p

Lastly buff/nerf mentality entirely depends what the contents values are based around, power creep is a nemesis that must continually be kept in check and buffing plays into that, nerfs are always safest. However the content currently (T15/16's, corrupted mods, shaper etc) all points towards life being low not ES being high, as at least ES can clear the content.


Good points, and I'm not necessarily saying you SHOULD tank Izaro at full charges, just saying that ES doesn't make you invincible like people seem to think. It makes you passable. Life based isn't passable unless you invest a lot more into it and make sacrifices like losing your chest piece for kaom's. And yes, other than soul strike the nerfs are mild, but it's really the fact that they don't see life a being problematic that gets me.
"
Bars wrote:
Apologies then, I admit I didn't read the entire thread carefully. About the rest - I have a feeling GGG are treating life builds as more accessible and budget-based early league openers (for the most part) and ES as the most common answer to endgame.

If this is not true, I don't have a good explanation of the current state of game balance.


This was along the same lines of how I was feeling. That seems like a pretty silly philosophy if you ask me for obvious reasons - it implies that they think it's ok that if your build doesn't have access to the right side of the tree then your build is totems or it isn't viable for all content.

And nw, I just wanted to make sure my stance was clear :)
I dont care to get to deep into the current bickering going on in this thread, so ill just say: Life really could use a major buff of some kind
I dont see any any key!
"
MeWhenum wrote:
Okay, so unless I am misreading something, life did not get buffed *at all* as far as I could see, yet ES got some nerfs in the form of energy from within/soulstrike/stasis map mod.

Uh...what?

Even with crazy ES you can still get one shot by random stuff. Über Izao for example has what...base 6K physical damage or something? Even stuff like magaera is dangerous to even defensively geared players. I honestly felt like ES was/is just about how strong defenses ought to be to be useful but not overpowered. Life on the other hand always feels really squishy to play. The solution is to nerf CI and ignore life based? Seriously? I really don't understand this. I feel like GGG just went and watched a video of someone using a super cheesy optimal 2000 exalt build then concluded based on that that ES was OP and everything else is balanced and fine.

Does anybody else feel like this is the total wrong solution to the ES/life discrepancy? Last I checked if you have one functional thing and one garbage thing, you buff the garbage thing, not nerf the functional thing. Life is simply not cutting it and needs help.


I'm with you 100%. I play ES with Ghost Reaver because Life pools are excruciatingly hard and frustrating to build and it's far too restrictive because of how much investment you need in BOTH passives AND Life rolls on gear. And if you use a couple of uniques too well good luck balancing things out. Oh and poe.trade suddenly poofs as well? Good luck trying to survive in maps with your 3k Life pool when you start mapping.

At least with ES you get large implicit values that you can further boost with certain rolls so you only have to worry about resists and other interesting mods you can use. And the ES nodes themselves on the tree have pretty high values as well.

Playing CI, ES and using Enfeeble creates a somewhat level playing field for me and the game plays much better overall. It feels more balanced.

ES isn't really broken. (for the most part) The game is. As well as Life as a mechanic. And game-breaking builds are often highly optimized and use crazy synergies that may even border on abuse. That's why sometimes things get nerfed or certain mechanics get changed. To balance these interactions and normalize crazy power spikes.
While I do sympathize ES players suffer from the recent ES nerfs as mentioned in original thread, I disagree with the view on correlation between "life sucks" vs "nerf es". Life, ES and hybrid builds are the current options, so changes to one of the options will make the other two more appealing or less attractive.

Every mmorpg nowadays will focus on changing the "meta" game via each big patch. It's definitely intentional so the game will feel fresh and players will keep trying new things with the existing skill base system. The majority of the community has been complaining about life-based builds are not as playable in end game, and ES is too strong as where it stands right now.

I personally strongly believe that GGG needs to address the REAL problems with CI/ES since 1.x patches. As many streamers have already pointed it out, vaal pact+soul reaver has no drawbacks/downside to CI/ES users. As well, CI/ES used to struggle with gearing towards stun immunity, but now we have valyrium, Presence of Chayula, Kiara's Determination and skyforth. And we all know how ineffective armor and evasion ratings are in late games, not to mention they only mitigate physical damage; Whereas, a high ES pool can mitigate BOTH spells and phys damage.

I apologize if I get off-topic here.

"In order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive" - Jordan Peterson(2018)

IGN:TheSnowofWinterFell
Last edited by horusray on Jan 24, 2017, 3:46:12 PM
-deleted-
"In order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive" - Jordan Peterson(2018)

IGN:TheSnowofWinterFell
Last edited by horusray on Jan 24, 2017, 3:42:53 PM
Making a life build right side of the tree maybe an archer without fortify even. Barely getting 5k HP or you can go 6k HP going for scion life in tree but your damage is 1/3 lower. Playing red maps with 5k HP and no fortify good luck.

life feels fine until you get to red maps and volatiles says Hi

I don't understand why life based build gets a 15% increased life skill node for mortal conviction node whereas ES builds gets a 15% FUCKING MORE es for infused shield node.


I never noticed it until the day I ragequit lifebased builds and switch to ES and until i learn the infused shield because it gave me a whopping 1000+ more es when i learned it.

Its too significant that I cannot fail to notice it.

What is more interesting is that rings/amulets can master craft 20% increased increased energy shield whereas life based builds cannot lol.

I guess the developers just hate life based or melee builds just like in diablo 3....
Last edited by YoursTruly86 on Jan 25, 2017, 2:16:16 AM

Report Forum Post

Report Account:

Report Type

Additional Info