Nothing wrong with Blade Flurry, it's not OP it just doesn't suck like typical melee

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Legatus1982 wrote:

[...]

No interested in any bet, even if that could get me free stuff, I earn what I have IG anyway.
We are not sure where the nerf hammer will fall, although it is very likely that BF will get some of it ( and BV of course ).

Some things to note :
- There will always be plenty of totem in the top HC unless they nerf the shit out of totem
- unless BF gets really nerfed, expect it to be there, really
- My char was (still is) level 89. TOP 50 HC means at some point level 100, 11 level is a big difference in term of gear, passive, and content that one can run comfortably, so I am not expecting the people going for it to stop at 5k life. ( speaking of 5k ES is just plain silly ).
- Melee will most likely be outnumbered for sure ( even tho technically, AW is a melee skill, no that it actually is at a melee range, BF neither lol ). so "real" melee skills will be absent I guess.
- All of that said .... Top ladder HC isn't the norm to balance the game, and it will never be unless the whole softcore population switches to hardcore ( which will never happen ).


PS : You obsession on who "should" or not post on the forums is pathetic man, seriously.

So by reading these posts to me it looks like you basically agree with the premises I listed. Assuming HC temp league top 50, that blade flurry/reave/frost blades etc counts as "melee" (and totems/summons do not), and assuming BF does NOT get nerfed.

You believe all of the following will be true after a few days:
1. There will be more casters than melee
2. Blade flurry will be less than 15% of total builds
3. Blade flurry will not be the most used gem/build
4. Less than 30% of the total existing melee gems (that can be builds, IE excluding whirling blades or riposte) will appear in that bracket
5. Some form of caster or totem build will be the most common build (IE, not a bow and not a melee)

You also believe that, barring some nerf to totems and/or supports:
1. There will be more totems than melee
2. There will be more supports than melee

So, you agree to all of these points being accurate predictions for the next HC temp league top 50? And yet you agree to nerf BF anyways?

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1. There will be more casters than melee

Self cast we might see. I guess Essence Drain stays there but that isn't really the usual direct damage spell. And then we might see one strong AoE, be it Flameblast, Vortex or Bladefall the best one will be used. Right now I assume its Flameblast after the small nerfs to Bladefall.

"

2. Blade flurry will be less than 15% of total builds

In HC surely. Considering that they will likely nerf what made Blade Vortex so strong and Blade Flurry draws from a lot of the same things I doubt it goes higher. And even Blade Vortex isn't above 15%, which doesn't make it that balanced.

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3. Blade flurry will not be the most used gem/build

It might. Not in HC though. In Standard it has a high chance of replacing Blade Vortex due to how easy it is to gear it with a cheap dagger or claw (Scourge or Binos). And considering that Standard makes up the huge majority of players I doubt that HC changes anything in that regard. For HC though it might be used for leveling, because you can put on anything and use a claw and be done, but beyond that like I said it has potential to replace the Lacerates in HC, but that's it.

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4. Less than 30% of the total existing melee gems (that can be builds, IE excluding whirling blades or riposte) will appear in that bracket

Well I assume we will see Blade Flurry and there is no reason to nerf Lacerate or Earthquake so we might see those too. Again Starforge is a thing and if you have Starforge there is no reason not to use Lacerate.

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5. Some form of caster or totem build will be the most common build (IE, not a bow and not a melee)

Baring heavy nerfs Warchief. It is hard to tell where the coin falls if it does get nerfed. Some skills might get changed. But again Top50 HC hardly says much. Technically Bowskills are way too weak, because there is hardly anybody using them in the Top50, in standard though they are common and the reason is that unless you are Explosive Arrow which can skip a lot of scaling you might run into trouble getting enough HP for HC people to consider the build viable.

So if we look at those numbers Summoners (SRS) and Warchief are too strong, they make up 13 (because 7 were private) of the 43. Supports are too good, they make up another 6. And with Blade Vortex which consists of another 7 chars we only have 17 Chars left. And from those 17 we have 4 that use DoTs (3 ED, 1 CA), 3 that use Flameblast, 3 that use other direct damage Spells, 3 Melees, 2 Archers, 1 non-WC Totem, 1 Miner

So buy your argument (looking at those numbers) Melees are actually better than Archers, even more so if you look at how different Explosive Arrow and weapon based Skills are, Explosive Arrow is more like CA, a Spell that needs a bow and considering that there is only 1 Archer present.

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1. There will be more totems than melee

Likely, right now it is 8 to 3 for the totems. And unless there are nerfs, which isn't unlikely I doubt that we see less.

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2. There will be more supports than melee

Well Melees don't benefit from Supports that much. Exspecially ES based Chars benefit from Supports and Earthquake and Lacerate don't fit in there too well. Blade Flurry would be a better fit since it is easier to go CI with that weapon selection. But again the amount of supports is more likely an hint at how many people play alone, because if you play together there isn't a good reason not to support (well besides being boring as shit).

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So, you agree to all of these points being accurate predictions for the next HC temp league top 50? And yet you agree to nerf BF anyways?

Yes because according to those stats we would have to buff Archers as well, because they are less present as well. Melee is propably balanced (or at least those two skills that are used), considering it is not that much rarer than any other non-OP things. Blade Vortex, Warchief and SRS is too strong, that is the only thing those stats tell.

But even then HC is played by so few people that limitations in the market might restrict buildchoices much more than actual balance. And I don't really see a reason why this should be figured into balance, it would make more sense to adjust the drops in HC temp leagues instead of messing up balance for the majority of players.

Actually there might even be more players playing hardcore in standard than there are in hardcore.

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Emphasy wrote:

Yes because according to those stats we would have to buff Archers as well, because they are less present as well. Melee is propably balanced (or at least those two skills that are used), considering it is not that much rarer than any other non-OP things. Blade Vortex, Warchief and SRS is too strong, that is the only thing those stats tell.

But even then HC is played by so few people that limitations in the market might restrict buildchoices much more than actual balance. And I don't really see a reason why this should be figured into balance, it would make more sense to adjust the drops in HC temp leagues instead of messing up balance for the majority of players.

Well see that's the problem isn't it, there's always a totems build, caster build, or summon build that is better than every weapon-based build. Wonder why that is?

Might be all of the reasons I listed over the past 28 pages, including weapon availability/market restrictions. That's my point and maybe you should factor that into your decisions. You obviously agree with every premise I listed there. Just saying.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

So by reading these posts to me it looks like you basically agree with the premises I listed. Assuming HC temp league top 50, that blade flurry/reave/frost blades etc counts as "melee" (and totems/summons do not), and assuming BF does NOT get nerfed.

You believe all of the following will be true after a few days:
1. There will be more casters than melee
2. Blade flurry will be less than 15% of total builds
3. Blade flurry will not be the most used gem/build
4. Less than 30% of the total existing melee gems (that can be builds, IE excluding whirling blades or riposte) will appear in that bracket
5. Some form of caster or totem build will be the most common build (IE, not a bow and not a melee)

You also believe that, barring some nerf to totems and/or supports:
1. There will be more totems than melee
2. There will be more supports than melee

So, you agree to all of these points being accurate predictions for the next HC temp league top 50? And yet you agree to nerf BF anyways?

1. That's a very easy guess, elementalist giving reflect protection and having couple of spell being quite OP + pretty safe does make this one quiiite obvious.
2. That depends on how hard the nerf hammer hits. If it doesn't, it will most likely be more than this.
3. So what ? blade flurry isn't as safe as totems / traps for obvious reasons, that alones makes totems / traps prefered.
4. What does it have to do with anything here ?? Actual melee gems put you in danger more than range skills ( expect for "fake" melee gems, EQ / Sunder / BF / Spec throw ). This is just plain off-topic.
5. See point 3.

1. Actually, Ancestral warchief being tagged "melee", this is already wrong. But if you mean actuall melee ( so not BF either ), well .... no shit ?!?
2. Same than 2.

You need to stop fixating over the top HC ladder seriously, it is not the only basis for balancing in this game at all, it really isn't.


And stop the fantasy about caster not needing any stuff, it's a blatant lie, leveling unique weapons turn it into the opposite actually.
Especially if the gear is going to be raining again next league ...

And stop pretending that people playing the ladder are all using budget builds that do not need a good weapon to perform well.
The fact that there was a starforge build in the top 50 HC ladder at the end alone is enough to proove it.

Bino is not difficult to get, and perform just fine with BF until one can get a godly weapon, that will be enough.

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Emphasy wrote:

Yes because according to those stats we would have to buff Archers as well, because they are less present as well. Melee is propably balanced (or at least those two skills that are used), considering it is not that much rarer than any other non-OP things. Blade Vortex, Warchief and SRS is too strong, that is the only thing those stats tell.

But even then HC is played by so few people that limitations in the market might restrict buildchoices much more than actual balance. And I don't really see a reason why this should be figured into balance, it would make more sense to adjust the drops in HC temp leagues instead of messing up balance for the majority of players.

Basically, this isn't hard to understand or ?
Does anybody know how many RotC builds were in the top 50 PHC btw ?

My point should be obvious. Melee needed help and bf is providing that, AND DESPITE BF EVEN IF IT DOESN'T GET NERFED melee STILL won't be the top dog.

Why you don't seem to understand this I have no idea.

BF does not help melee at all, it's completely meaningless for this purpose I would even say.

Basically, but the tag, but is nothing like a melee skill.

The targeting rework will help melee, and then GGG should be able to have a balancing that will actually help melee.
BF is as melee as ancestral warchief.

By following your logic, with 7 ancestral warchief builds in the top 50 EHC, melee should be in a pretty good place right ?
I mean, 1/4 of the non support top 50 builds are melee since it's ancestral warchief, so melee is fine right ?

But actually, does AW provide any help to the real melee problem ?

Absolutely not.

Iam sry, it´s not a melee skill. It looks like bad designed spell.
GGG should stop to introduce "psedo-melee" things like melee totems and such and just upgrade old skills (HS, cleave..) and make them enjoyable.

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Fruz wrote:

BF does not help melee at all, it's completely meaningless for this purpose I would even say.

Well, I definitely agree that bf is pseudo melee, but I think there is a clear distinction between totems and bf. The range on bf may be large but it is an attack that originates from the character using a melee weapon.

It's not a significant distinction from just using a bow at that point, but it's what we have right now.

If bf gets nerfed melee will be getting shit on for YET ANOTHER LEAGUE. How long do melee players need to wait before you will allow them to be competitive?

I would love to see a melee rework but that ISN'T COMING IN THIS LEAGUE. Bf is here now and it's that or nothing for melee right now. Honestly I don't even think bf will be competitive this league even if it remains untouched.

BF and ancestral warchief is basically the same, you don't even see the character swing the weapon.
It does not do good to melee.