Nothing wrong with Blade Flurry, it's not OP it just doesn't suck like typical melee
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^Funnily enough you guys think you're smart, when all you are doing here is showing that you're having severe issues with understanding written english.
No, it does not need to come with a nerf to other skills. Period. It could, but it doesn't have to. I never said other skills shouldn't get nerfed at all. Like bladevortex, for example. I never said BV should not get nerfed. Kids these days... Quoting stuff out of context in hopes of getting someone triggered... You really must be desperate. Remember this one? " Or this one? " Oh, wait, here one for you geniuses: " [quote="ScrotieMcB"]It's just, like, people's opinions, man. But I cannot respect motherf♪♫♫♪rs calling something a simulator, when it isn't one.[/quote] Mors edited this post first. Last edited by Sure_K4y on Nov 24, 2016, 7:17:00 PM
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Last edited by TenTonBlue on Nov 24, 2016, 8:37:37 PM
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" " Well, there's definitely one person here who's having trouble with written english. I'm not convinced that person is me. HEhehhehehehehehhe All joking aside, you either believe the gems should be balanced, in which case BF gets nerfed AND 30% of the games gems ALSO get nerfed, or you don't believe the gems should be balanced, in which case fuck off about BF. Pick one. Also frankly, your quotes of mine you linked together are nowhere near as bad as that shit you just posted, lol. There's nothing contradictory about it at all. You REAAAAAAAALLLLLLY have to stretch the imagination to make those posts be contradictions. My stance has been, from page 1, that BF will not top any HC charts next league. There might be one guy using it in the top 50, like we had with EQ, so assuming EQ doesn't get nerfed we'll have two melee next season in the top 50 hc. The rest of the ppl up there will all be casters or totems and maybe 1-2 bow users. Despite that, I am allowing BF to be nerfed IF it means the rest of the game will be balanced. Simply because, as I've said hundreds of times by now, I'M NOT EVEN GOING TO USE IT. And because I would fucking WELCOME with open arms a real balanced gem selection. You on the other hand, need to get your shit together and pick a stance on the issue. You flip-flop like a politician (I could use other descriptors besides politician, but well. Let's keep it civil shall we). my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes ----- Bug Fixes: People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it. Last edited by Legatus1982 on Nov 24, 2016, 9:08:22 PM
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" Zzz...Zzz...Zzz...Zzz...Zzz...Zzz... " " It could, and it probably should, but it does not have to. Nerfing an OP skill independent of others is still reasonable, because OP skill is OP. If you want the game to be even remotely balanced, ever, nerfing/buffing skills on an individual basis is a valid approach, and probably the only one that will work in the long run. You're in no position to rationally defend the existance of one OP skill by way of pointing towards other OP skills. Deal with it. Nerfing an overpowered skill is tied to one condition only: The skill is OP. Other OP skills, in this context, do not present a basis which allows for delaying a necessary nerf. If you want to talk about OP bladevortex, make a seperate thread for that. " Contradictory? Oh wait, I have something contradictory for you: " Which translates to: " " Did your crystal ball tell you that? You're not going to use it? OK then, no problem with nerfing BF I guess. You're not affected at all, done deal, drop the hammer. Oh, you want balanced skills? Well, how about balancing them one by one, instead of doing everything at once, and fucking it up, as it's always been in the past years? Sounds reasonable? Good, then drop the hammer on flurry and blade vortex. " You need to talk. " Translation: I got my shit together long ago. [quote="ScrotieMcB"]It's just, like, people's opinions, man.
But I cannot respect motherf♪♫♫♪rs calling something a simulator, when it isn't one.[/quote] Mors edited this post first. | |
" That is actually a list I can work with... although those are not 24 :P So lets look at them. Spark - Is a bit of an oddball, when it got nerfed the nerfes didn't directly affect it's damage, only it's reach and that is still decent. However the issue now actually is that you have to cast it more often. If Spark would be an attack I would agree, but as a spell it has some downsides. It doesn't offer the amount of sustain an attack has and it isn't as ridicolously safe as it was. And due to the changes to how spark projectiles behave after bouncing you can't multiply damage as effectively. I would totally say that Spark is viable, but it is hard to see it surpassing Blade Flurry exspecially if you have a bit of Area on top of Support and the Skill itself. Fireball - Rolling Flames Fireball definitly has the clear. I can't really see it being as good in terms of single target damage though. Depending on the build you might switch with Firestorm (or maybe a Gloves or Helmet 4l Firestorm with Essence), but even if you shotgun with the explosions the damage just isn't there. However I would say your average Rolling Flames Fireball build is propably a good benchmark how spells should feel. Firestorm - I already mentioned that Firestorm likely is the only skill having compareable damage to Blade Vortex. However you can't charge it upfront and just run through everything. Imagine Firestorm would stay above your character as you move, that is essentially what Blade Vortex is. So Firestorm is awesome for bosses, but it doesn't clear that good. Flicker strike - It's fast, it's fun, but it is incredible risky, basically that alone is the reason why it falls off, similar to many other actual melee skills. They have decent damage and are sometimes even fun to play but they are too risky. Actually a dagger Flicker build might just switch out Flicker for Blade Flurry on annoying single target situations. Shield Charge - Again beautiful clear, I would actually use it on a Blade Flurry build, because the damage usually is enough anyway to crush enemies. But Blade Flurry is so much better on single target while not being terrible for AoE that I can't see Shield Charge above Blade Flurry. Blade Vortex - I won't really comment on that :P. If anybody questions that this skill is kinda broken or atleast the way you are able to utilize it right now something is wrong. And propably if you get a Sparking Fireballstorm it would propably still be worse than Blade Vortex. Flameblast - Again it is odd, but I actually feel that Blade Flurry has the edge here. Again it is so much faster and more flexible. They are actually fairly similar. It propably depends on how much you value the option to not require a good weapon. I mean Binos right now is cheap, not sure how Blade Flurry affects the price, but if you get a cheap dagger Blade Flurry is likely better, Flameblast might still outclass it for certain purposes like earning early wealth in a league. So I could agree that they both have clear advantages over the other, the scaleability of Blade Flurry on the one hand and the cheapness of Flameblast on the other. Bladefall/bladefall mines - I can't say much about the mines. Because they feel so much worse with nerfs than they did before (they don't aim right anymore and poison isn't double dipping the mine multiplier). However they might have been so good that this is still a lot better than other things, but I would look at other options now if I need a really fast boss killer. Bladefall as a spell is good, but you often face the difficult decision of concentrated effect vs. increased area, because it doesn't cover that much and you need overlapping areas for damage. Essence Drain - Hmm... hard to judge that one due to how unique it is. Again It is incredible cheap to build for has decent boss killing power (although an Assassin based Blade Flurry char should out dps it). I would argue that it is something you don't even have to compare, because Essence Drain (and I assume in combination with Contagion otherwise it would be terrible^^) has the potential to wipe out huge areas in maps, but it also has the potential to be terribly screwed by small mistakes or enemies blocking you are even too much damage. When I first played it I actually played it with 100% Pierce because it was terrible to hit the right enemy, Pierce Eliminated that and offered 29% more damage as well, so why not. And again it is clearly viable you can do any content with it (I did use Deadeye/Occultist Ascendant, which doesn't work too good anymore). But again I have a hard time seeing it is universally better. It has the potential for awesome clear but on bosses it is safe and good, but again not as powerful as a poison stacking attack (although I do hope they didn't make the mistake of allowing the more damage per stack to affect poison damage). Explosive arrow - I actually cannot comment much on this. The last time I used it was when Elemental Proliferation was the way to go^^. From a purely damage perspective it does have great potential and again I see it as a viable skill, but like spells it has advantages in early scaling but doesn't scale as high as attacks can. And I usually would assume everyone can get a Binos and that is a really decent weapon for that purpose. Fire nova mines - Somewhat good wasn't the question^^. I tried them out when they were released and they weren't bad but not too impressive. The mechanics of the skill limit them. Ladder is more a sign of how much you invest into a char. I wouldn't really use it too much for the purpose of seeing what is good, because essentially you could do all blue maps all day and be at the top, which wouldn't say too much about the actual ability. I'm actually more surprised that he can stand playing the same build for every league. Tornado Shot, Barrage and Lightning Arrow - I do list those 3 together because people often switch between them on the same build, due to how they can be better in certain circumstances, but again they have very clear downsides. Barrage is usually your single target skill, while the other two are used for AoE clear. Tornado Shot if you have less damage and GMP/Chain Lightning Arrow if you have a lot. Tornado Shot can do both, but switching GMP and Tornado Shot with Barrage + Slower Projectiles is usually better. Blast Rain could replace Barrage, but I feel Barrage is better. The other bow gems... not sure, again Split Arrow coul replace Tornado Shot or Lightning Arrow, but it just isn't as good. Also interesting node Blade Flurry does surpass the initial range of Tornado Shot with AoE investments, which is kinda ridiculous. My Tier1 would simply be Blade Vortex, there is nothing comparable. In Tier2 I would put Ancestral Warchief, Blade Flurry, Essence Drain, Barrage, Flameblast My Tier3 would be Earthquake, Spectral Throw, Bladefall, Vortex and honestly many other spells I made the list in order (so the first one is the most powerful within the Tier). So the question is what do I look at in a skill? a) Numerical damage b) Safety c) Coverage d) Scaling e) Accessability So Blade Flurry has high numerical damage, the highest of any attack. Of course it is limited due to using 1h weapons, but this high damage already gives it good scaling. Upgrading your weapons or getting flat phys on other items does a lot. There are skills that score better here like Firestorm and of course Blade Vortex, but at least Firestorm does have downsides. The next thing is safety and considering how fast you can charge up a single stage or even two and how high it's range is that is not a concern. It also allows easy access to attack based leech. And allows a shield if desired. Coverage. While the secondary AoE starts out slow it gets pretty big. Area in which you search for targets is huge anyway, but also the amount of enemies you can hit with one strike is impressive. It also feels very good to use it. And due to the high AS you want for the skill it works nice with Shield Charge or Whirling Blades or if you do the reave trick with Leap Slam (I do assume that they fix the Brightbeak exploit, but I still think that you can offhand a mace like you can with reave). Scaling is actually the thing were it edges out a lot of other skills. And we have to look at accessability too. Binos used to be a moderatly expensive item. Not every player could have gotten one. But this league it is pretty cheap. It did get more expensive now with Blade Flurry released but it is still very affordable. This means while you do have a lot of scaling you also don't need that much cash to get started. Getting Binos is enough. And since you asked for changes to other skills, here are main: Blade Vortex -Blade Vortex only deals damage once every 0,5 seconds and gets 100% more damage per stage (Alternatively give Surgeons a CD like CoC should have happened right from the start, but increase the chance as well) -15% Less Damage -20% Damage effectiveness I assume that hitting the amount of hits you deal per second and reducing them from 40 to 2 should be enough to bring it in line, other changes should come at other places, because reducing damage too far might make it frustrating to not do anything with just 4 or 5 charges. Ancestral Warchief -Increase Area, decrease Damage. Warchief should be the AoE totem, while protector should be single target, right now its the other way... or actually Warchief is just better in both situations. Essence Drain -Spelldamage should only benefit the Essence Drain DoT not Poison. I honestly thought that was a bug when I first heard about it. I would even argue that as a small buff the projectile speed could be upped a little bit to make it less annoying. Blade Flurry -15% less damage is all that is needed (that way a single charge isn't stronger than most single target skills, while also getting 65% more AS). Another option would be reducing the secondary AoE and turn Blade Flurry into a single target skill, because for AoE Reave is a really good option and they are similar enough that you can switch them easily. The other skills I don't feel need changes as badly, maybe I did oversee one. But I don't think that they are as good in crowding out other options. Bladefall could hurt elemental spells, but this seems to be much better now than how it was earlier. | |
" Waaaaaaaaay too long to read, I read the first part and saw some stuff I liked and some I didn't, I'm just going to leave it at that because I am unwilling to read wall after wall. my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes ----- Bug Fixes: People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it. Last edited by Legatus1982 on Nov 25, 2016, 11:13:28 AM
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" Again too long, but I highlighted the important bit. This tells me again that you do not actually care about balance, you're just here to nerf BF. You either want the game's gems to be balanced or you don't. IF you don't, then why are you posting in this thread asking for a nerf to BF? IF you do, then you believe 30% of the games gems need hard nerfs. It's really that simple, you're either on one side or you're on the other. Your apparent inability to make up your mind is the issue right now. You don't get to have it both ways, and I'm seeing a lot of hypocrisy in your arguments right now. You repeatedly assert that one gem being nerfed because it's OP doesn't need to come with nerfs to other OP gems as well. That isn't balance, that's selectively nerfing gems because you simply want them nerfed. Balanced means every gem that is overperforming gets nerfed, and every gem that is underperforming gets buffed, and ideally they all end up doing about the same xp and currency per hour at endgame. Nerfing one gem and leaving other OP gems as they are doesn't lead to a balanced result, it leads to a MORE UNBALANCED RESULT THAN WE ALREADY HAD. my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes ----- Bug Fixes: People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it. Last edited by Legatus1982 on Nov 25, 2016, 11:16:32 AM
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" Uhm... hello... Discharge is like 5x faster for maps. 177
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" You need to stop putting words in my mouth, and learn to read less selectively. Like, jesus christ, how stubborn can a single person be? I do care about balance, believe it or not, but this thread isn't about overall balance, it's about BF balance. BF = OP, so a nerf is needed. Stop constantly comparing this to that and then to whatnot, it doesn't matter. You can't have everything at once. GGG tried to do so over years and never succeeded. Do it on a skill by skill basis and then you get somewhere over time. Holy shit, how hard is that to understand? It can't be done all at once, and leaving the gem as is doesn't make the game any more balanced, no matter often you candy-coat that it does. You wanna talk overall balance? Fine by me, go right ahead and create a thread about overall balance, because this one is about Blade Flurry's balance. " You're putting words in my mouth again. You've resorted to building strawmen where you see fit, just so you have something to take a swing at, and let me tell you my grandmother swings harder than you do. You're arguing without having any arguments that are worthwhile. You claim BF isn't as good as other melee skills and whatnot, but that's obviously because you are unable to properly build a tree that works from start to finish. So far nobody has complained about being unable to level properly with BF, exception being you. Do you not realize that most people disagree with you? Are you so blind to the obvious? Or do you think you're that brilliant that you alone are able to see things the way they are? " Adding BF meant introducing a new OP skill, thus BF is causing additional balance issues, so BF as is now made the game more unbalanced than it previously was. It's this way around. But you know what? I'm outta here. You have it stuck so far up your head that there's really no reasoning with you. You think you know better than everyone else? Don't make me laugh. As for highlighting the important parts: LOL! You're cherrypicking and misinterpreting at the same time. [quote="ScrotieMcB"]It's just, like, people's opinions, man. But I cannot respect motherf♪♫♫♪rs calling something a simulator, when it isn't one.[/quote] Mors edited this post first. Last edited by Sure_K4y on Nov 25, 2016, 12:26:38 PM
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" You might have missed a few things about Discharge recently. It is propably still usable and still powerful, but I never mentioned that cleartime is the sole indicator for the powerlevel of skills. " Well actually yes and no. Nerfing one OP gem doesn't necessarily mean you have to nerf others. However if you do nerf one OP gem you should start with the one that is most OP and that isn't Blade Flurry. If you just nerf Blade Flurry and leave Blade Vortex as one example that is clearly above in place it would actually hurt the game health. However just nerfing Blade Vortex would be totally fine because while Blade Flurry is likely too strong the degree of power it posesses is far below that of Blade Vortex. I would say that even though I expect a lot of Blade Flurry to be around next league (not so much HC, I assume they stick to Warchief Totems, or Flameblast or... something we totally forgot Siege Ballistas), Blade Flurry is likely closer to the rest of the pack as Blade Vortex and it also likely has a bunch of equally strong skills around it. The only issue I could see is that they leave Blade Flurry and nerf Warchief, Essence Drain, Barrage etc. that are fair competitors for it right now. Another thing to note is that we will get a channeling support, this could push Blade Flurry further. Last edited by Emphasy on Nov 25, 2016, 12:34:18 PM
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