Evasion/Dodge/Raider improvements

Grzy, spend some time in these forums and you'll get used to posts like that.

Thing is all he does is deflect and derail, so you need to not get distracted by the constant stupidity and stick to the main issue, which in this case is that the reason ziz takes no damage is because, like any ranged totem build, he never gets touched.

Take away his totem and tell ziz to melee that boss and it's a different story. Chimera can be beaten as melee but compared to that totem build for example it's like eating soup with a fork.

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You do realize that 5-6k hits are an avegare hits in current end game ? Or you never got there and just dont know ? I got hit with fortify + taste of hate + basalt + 3 endu charges for 8k ES while fighting no mods Chimera (nothing that boosted his dmg). How much was that before mitigation ? 14-15k ?

Evasion build with 5k life would just evaporate...

Well there are hits and hits.

I'm not entirely sure about the fight, but I doubt that it's an autoattack. So there are likely means to avoid it. And don't get me wrong, Melee Evasion is in a not very good shape, but honestly if you look at there skills, hardly any one of them is actually melee. Lacerate, Reave or even Spectral Throw (which is used with Melee weapons at least). They have a hard time getting the right sockets for melees in an Evasion Chest (which is why so many use Belly or LC in the first place, it's easier to color). And they can do that. Spectral Throw with Slower projectiles is usually the most effective one of those, because coloring the chest is easier and the damage is a lot higher and you can easily switch out Slower Projectiles for more safety (for Reave and Lacerate you would have to remove Conc. Effected which is a much bigger part of your damage).

The best defense for Evasion is avoiding, if it fails they might manage to dodge or evade, but they should try to avoid having to do this in the first place. Thats why actual melee skills like Dual Strike, Viper Strike, Double Striker or Wildestrike fail in the first place.

i decided to try this 'hot garbage' (i do not agree with that opinion, not at all) and rolled a Raider evasion with 2handed sword (to make stuff harder as a good shield can really set you up and cover most weaknesses)

plan is to get the Phasing path (for dodge/spell dodge bonus + status immunity) and one of both paths too (i do not like Raider's ascendancies)

i will take Acro/Phase Acro + Basalt + Granite (yes, despite using Acro) + 6 end charges (as the tree is spanning up to the Mara starting area)

my way of thinking is this:

- ill dodge and evade most attacks and significant portion of spells.
- DoT will hurt me but as im very fast, have phasing and cannot be frozen it will be easy to run away from stationary DoTs and bleeding is gone with a pop of a flask
- elemental damage - AR does nothing vs that, high EV will cut significant portion of attack ele damage
- spells - 45% spell dodge? so damage cut in half
- phys hits.. 6 end charges (24%), fortify (20%), basalt (25% with increased effect), 5000 armor (yes, with flask but still). i think ill manage

so far it is very easy and im doing just fine using Wild Strike (because i got uber enchant with +chains on a helmet and wanted to try it out - this skill will own once targeting is fixed.. it truly will)

i just hit 60 and Vaal. will get to piety, get 2 points and start mapping + do lab when if layout is good tomorow.

i expect it to work, just as good as my previous pure-EV melee guy did - he is using Hyrri's Ire + Acro + dual wield block (yes, cut in 30%, so what)



root of some complaints is one dimensional characters when entire game screams 'mix stuff together!'

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Fruz wrote:

This is why I said "average hit", I don't consider the new fancy red bosses as average.

But I saw som streams having no problems against Chimera but for the bleeding dog, Ziz's stream for example ... life based, he did not die, and I dont remember him using ToH or being permanently under basalt.
And Chimera dealt almost no damage to him.

So you have no experience yourself and want to be a part of that conversation ? WTF ?

GTHO and feel the pain with own skin...

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Legatus1982 wrote:

Grzy, spend some time in these forums and you'll get used to posts like that.

Thing is all he does is deflect and derail, so you need to not get distracted by the constant stupidity and stick to the main issue, which in this case is that the reason ziz takes no damage is because, like any ranged totem build, he never gets touched.

Take away his totem and tell ziz to melee that boss and it's a different story. Chimera can be beaten as melee but compared to that totem build for example it's like eating soup with a fork.

*clap*

*looks at signature*

*clap, clap, clap*

"

The best defense for Evasion is avoiding, if it fails they might manage to dodge or evade, but they should try to avoid having to do this in the first place.

Yeah melee evasion is in terrible shape. It's fine for low to mid-tier maps (like any other build I guess), but high-end maps it takes a beating. And takes it HARD.

I have gone the route of stacking as much avoidance, and eventually you hit a wall. Some of these red bosses either have ridiculous high damage, or high levels of spell damage WITH attack damage that is hard to build against.

On top of that there are bosses with high "hit-rate" attacks: Daresso's swords, A'alai's quill rain, Rigwald's wolf spray. Which will break any avoidance build. If you don't have high HP (aka 7k+ life, or a CI fat cat, good luck)

Some of these bosses I don't even understand how they are hitting me. Perfect example is T15 Daresso - I tried him in 2.3 and I stacked: maxed dodge with Vaal Grace, Blind, EV, AND BLOCKS. And I was STILL GETTING HIT by his attacks.

How?

Some of his attacks were even hitting me SEQUENTIALLY. How that is even impossible with EV and blind (yet alone with added max dodge and block), I have no clue.

Then we have bosses like Core which is a nightmare for melee players yet alone EV melee with <5k life - with the ground littered with fucking traps.

Then the icing on the cake is Shaper boss with the degen circles, which are a massive pain for a melee build. Minotaur with his rock fall, the list is fucking endless.

Ok, here I am sitting with my EV melee build with shitty life nodes and GGG is making content which basically is saying:

"Idiot why are you playing EV melee with your shitty life nodes - eat this damage. You like it?"

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Emphasy wrote:

The best defense for Evasion is avoiding, if it fails they might manage to dodge or evade, but they should try to avoid having to do this in the first place. Thats why actual melee skills like Dual Strike, Viper Strike, Double Striker or Wildestrike fail in the first place.

Agreed with this, but I'll add that the reason viper strike in particular fails is because LITERALLY you build a viper striker and end up clearing maps faster WITH ANOTHER SKILL

Did you see hegemony's video? Perfect example of the bullshit someone who wants to build viper strike goes though, "oh man I finally finished grinding this viper striker to level 80, time to cut some monsters up with my leet viper striking, hey wait a minute why am I clearing faster with shield charge..." SHIELD CHARGE

What if I wanted to dual wield? Guess you'll have to use reave, Qarl told us reave is a dual wield skill right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

AND DONT EVEN GET ME FUCKING STARTED on those goddamn VS jewels

Sometimes I wonder how people even justify giving GGG money for MTX and account features with this kind of stuff going on

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Agreed with this, but I'll add that the reason viper strike in particular fails is because LITERALLY you build a viper striker and end up clearing maps faster WITH ANOTHER SKILL

Well you could add that you build for any skill and clear the map faster with one of the meta skills :P

Double Strike or Dualstrike are not that much different. For Viper Strike it is exspecially true because it sucks not only compared to other melee skills, you also likely start as a shadow giving you some good nodes for almost every build dealing chaos or physical damage.

I assume the same is true for all of the single target skills though. Maybe Infernal Blow is an exception but than again its not really single target.

Youre right in some sense but IDK man, some skills even if they aren't meta, when you build them you clear fastest using those skills even if they aren't as good as a fully built BV character. But then there are some skills, like if you build ice spear, even with a fully kitted out ice spear character you probably clear faster using arctic breath or something.

I think there's only maybe 1-3 skills that applies to other than the entire list of single target melee gems. I think dual strike has its own niche also because of its unique interaction being the only REAL dual wield gem.

But I digress now. Back to the topic, evasion is still shit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

GGG needs to remove block penalty from Acro. One of the worst balance changes in the history of PoE that is still in this game for 2 years.

I am still amused this change has stayed in the game for so long. Every patch I keep waiting and watching from the sideline to see how long GGG wants to keep up their silly charade.

And of course, every patch since Dec'14 I have continued to be impressed.

This is an easy way to help EV life melee builds tremendously.

Even easier is just make Raider able to remove the penalty.

I'm not even asking for Ondar's Guile to be fixed. But without block you will not survive as EV melee.

When penalty was introduced the hardest bosses in the game were 1.3 Uber Atziri and T14 Palace Dominus.

That's it.

We now have TWO WHOLE levels of bosses that make Uber Atziri look easy and Palace Dominus like a soft pillow.

In addition, GGG increased monster damage.

Then they buffed AR formula.

Then they increased monster life.

Still Acro has the block penalty. What is the logic for this?

The only builds this is hurting are EV life melee builds which somehow GGG still thinks are OP despite EV life melee lying bleeding in the gutter for about a year and a half now.

See, this is what I don't get: "balancing" like keeping CoC OP for several years, BV, BF, poison/bleed, buffing Tornado Shot, adding OP bow uniques like RotC. Yet somehow still insisting on keeping block penalty on Acro?

Mmmkay. I just can't fathom how a professional gaming company balances like this.

This is why I don't blame anyone playing fat cat CI BV, or just playing a ranged build.

Acro block penalty is there for a reason. just do the math to see why

and you can STILL cap dodge and block at the same time thanks to new flasks and vaal grace.

.75 × .75 multiplicative attack and spell avoidance is stypidly strong and we all know it. ggg knows that as well

i wouldnt hold the grudge for two years if i were you. your immortal cannot be killed block dodge eva crit dagger character from '14 is just as good today. what is the real change is the cwdt+ec+ic change.


what people have to understand - and something ggg have meant saying that live builds have lots of unused potential - is that going ' full pure something' is a suicide. CI is an exception and i expect a swift end to that madness.

game should be hard and requires skill - also mechanical - at the highest levels. people are killing shaper with shittier and shittier builds each day. you are not supposed to facetank this stuff.