So, why exactly are 'you' against CoC? It's not like it's the equivalent of pre release Spork...

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Robertthebob wrote:

Never messed around with CoC and I dunno where to even start. Shrug.

that's what she said.

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raics wrote:

I suppose we can also spot the harmful effect on spell balance right away while we're at it - it isn't possible to have high cast speed diversity on spells anymore because slow, hard hitting spells will just have their base cast speed overridden with weapon base and be exploited. Which is obviously a bad thing and the reason why, say, projectile spell shotgunning was removed - it was a thorn in the side of the balance and design teams.

I should probably expand a bit on this.

You think it's coincidence we got no powerful projectile spells since CoC got introduced? That most of them were either lackluster like Magma Orb or have some sort of quirk like Essence Drain or Frostbolt that makes it unsuitable for CoC? It's coincidence that a slow, crit-oriented projectile spell like Ice spear got nerfed to oblivion?

I'd say devs are just tired of pussyfooting around it and rightly so, I'd be tired of it too. If that means we will get powerful projectile spells and more diversity I say let the damn thing die, you certainly won't see any tears from me. At best let it remain usable as a niche build it was supposed to be, not as an opener build you can go for in a new league and kick butt for a few handfuls of chaos.

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raics wrote:

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raics wrote:

I suppose we can also spot the harmful effect on spell balance right away while we're at it - it isn't possible to have high cast speed diversity on spells anymore because slow, hard hitting spells will just have their base cast speed overridden with weapon base and be exploited. Which is obviously a bad thing and the reason why, say, projectile spell shotgunning was removed - it was a thorn in the side of the balance and design teams.

I should probably expand a bit on this.

You think it's coincidence we got no powerful projectile spells since CoC got introduced? That most of them were either lackluster like Magma Orb or have some sort of quirk like Essence Drain or Frostbolt that makes it unsuitable for CoC? It's coincidence that a slow, crit-oriented projectile spell like Ice spear got nerfed to oblivion?

I'd say devs are just tired of pussyfooting around it and rightly so, I'd be tired of it too. If that means we will get powerful projectile spells and more diversity I say let the damn thing die, you certainly won't see any tears from me. At best let it remain usable as a niche build it was supposed to be, not as an opener build you can go for in a new league and kick butt for a few handfuls of chaos.

Coc projectile spam wasnt even that great though even during the prime of shatterchuck. It was again a knee jerk over reaction by the community and a heavy handed nerf hammer by GGG. Like always. PoEs 4 year history is plauged by this constant nerf cycle. Now coc will join the boneyard of targeted builds. Whatever people keep quiting and scubs keep complaining.

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mathiasmmh wrote:

What do you classify Plaza map as? Easy content? What is hard content then? I consistently ran T15 maps with triple damage mods, only ever skipping Core Malachai. The two pieces of content that I didn't do this league was Core Malachai and Uber Atziri.

Theres nothing hard in Plaza boss for any leech/high es build. No need coc for that. Core and Uber I say are hard content in this game atm. Tripple dmg mods on regular map clear dont matter too much these days when monsters usually die before they even hit you.

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mathiasmmh wrote:

I already wrote in that post that you can do everything that I did with worse gear. Do you think I just magically ended up with that gear at level 85? I'm not sure if you even read 50% of my post, because that's how much you ended up ignoring.
It's funny how you attack my post even though I clearly wrote that you could do it without any expensive gear, and you also manage to not bring up a single point that refutes my claim that CoC is overpowered.

Look, Im not attacking you or your post. I have nothing against you. I agree with you on some points and disagree on others. Im just sharing my opinion thats all.

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mathiasmmh wrote:

I'm not sure what you even mean by this? What other build can get 15k ES, 75% block/spellblock and still clear T15s in 4-5 minutes? I tried 7 builds this league, and the CoC build was what allowed me to get level 100.

Several pathfinder builds with rumis and high ES gear?

Coc is getting nerfed thats for sure. They already said that. Im just saying there are several other builds that are equally strong. For map clear bow builds, wand builds, several whirling blades/move speed big aoe builds. For bosses there are stronger choices, self cast blade vortex, mines, traps, frostwall builds, poison double dippers with all supports gem being more multiplier(bow builds work fine here too) etc etc..


To me coc just is nice balance tankiness vs clear speed and able to do most bosses too. More builds should be like this. Not just one trick builds that can clear maps super fast but their buffs and on-kill effects stop working at bosses etc.


When I play with friends with my coc builds, I usually cant even whirl to monsters before bow/wand build chained 3 screens at once and bosses get oneshot to poison or frostwall, lol. I guess thats why I dont see coc as OP as some people.

Anyway, we will see soon what happens. Hopefully this fun playstyle wont be totally destroyed in future.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

Nothing is OP if you can be one shot. I got one shot by Merciless Malachai with over 9k ES and legacy Taste of Haste up which was boosted by Pathfinder and flask nodes. I didn't really have armour but converted around 50% of physical damage taken to cold. Still one shot.

Agree thee isnt a single thing in this game that is OP right now, but there are a shit load of skills, uniques, and affixes that are underpowered as hell.

Its beyond retarded. CoC is not that good in upper red tier maps. This game has changed where people level in the high 90's through T9 Gorges, T10 Bazzards, T12 Shipyards and T13 Waterways/Coutyard and thats pretty much it.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

Nothing is OP if you can be one shot. I got one shot by Merciless Malachai with over 9k ES and legacy Taste of Haste up which was boosted by Pathfinder and flask nodes. I didn't really have armour but converted around 50% of physical damage taken to cold. Still one shot.

You know that a malachai slam does around 8k or so with no mitigation, right? I find it hard to believe that you got one shot with 9K+ ES and a legacy taste of hate then.

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raics wrote:

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raics wrote:

I suppose we can also spot the harmful effect on spell balance right away while we're at it - it isn't possible to have high cast speed diversity on spells anymore because slow, hard hitting spells will just have their base cast speed overridden with weapon base and be exploited. Which is obviously a bad thing and the reason why, say, projectile spell shotgunning was removed - it was a thorn in the side of the balance and design teams.

I should probably expand a bit on this.

You think it's coincidence we got no powerful projectile spells since CoC got introduced? That most of them were either lackluster like Magma Orb or have some sort of quirk like Essence Drain or Frostbolt that makes it unsuitable for CoC? It's coincidence that a slow, crit-oriented projectile spell like Ice spear got nerfed to oblivion?

I'd say devs are just tired of pussyfooting around it and rightly so, I'd be tired of it too. If that means we will get powerful projectile spells and more diversity I say let the damn thing die, you certainly won't see any tears from me. At best let it remain usable as a niche build it was supposed to be, not as an opener build you can go for in a new league and kick butt for a few handfuls of chaos.

That's because GGG learned that any hit hitting spell (very high base damage) with "slow cast" speed will be abused up the wazoo by totems, CoC, just having enough cast speed, ect. You don't need to cast a 2nd time if the entire screen to clear by a single cast.

That and there are few variants of "powerful" projectile spell that's left to design unless you want to make it mechanically different. Which then Bladefall and bladevortex which are kinda like projectile spells are nearly absurdly broken with CoC.

Blaming CoC for certain things certain spell design is only half right, because those spells have to be broken first to be useful for CoC.

Discharge CoC is good because Discharge is absurdly broken if you can infinite charges in numbers over 10. But not 100% because CoC is broken.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

That's because GGG learned that any hit hitting spell (very high base damage) with "slow cast" speed will be abused up the wazoo by totems, CoC, just having enough cast speed, ect. You don't need to cast a 2nd time if the entire screen to clear by a single cast.

How so? Do two casts at 0,3s for half damage each give less dps than one cast at 0,6s for normal damage?

If I remember right, in 2.0 they reduced damage of many slow spells and made them faster to compensate. The most notable example being ethereal knives which was changed in that fashion twice and was previously extremely popular for CoC. Can't really remember, but CoC might have been even mentioned as one of the reasons. Doesn't changing that many spells because of one support gem seem kinda dumb to you? Especially because the gem is unimportant in the grand scale, all those spells are usable without CoC (or would be if CoC went out of the picture).

The situation is kinda similar to the one with weapon speed, they reduced the gap between slow and fast weapons because fast, low damage ones produced higher dps rares because of better scaling with added flat damage. They can't fix scaling so they just made fast weapons less fast and slow ones less slow, but CoC can be changed.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

Discharge CoC is good because Discharge is absurdly broken if you can infinite charges in numbers over 10. But not 100% because CoC is broken.

I think they will take care of juggernaut in 2.4 too, and it's kinda tricky to selfcast it that way otherwise. Selfcast Discharge is a nifty and fun spell but far from broken, triggering it is broken and I think they should also make it selfcast-only, whether CoC gets nerfed or not. I suppose they will be able to revert Myolner to 50% in that case, it isn't overly powerful with other spells.

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raics wrote:

Selfcast Discharge is a nifty and fun spell but far from broken, triggering it is broken and I think they should also make it selfcast-only, whether CoC gets nerfed or not. I suppose they will be able to revert Myolner to 50% in that case, it isn't overly powerful with other spells.

I'm kinda on the fence, cuz on the one hand CoC is obviously broken with discharge, but on the other hand I've enjoyed using CoMK with it (which is significantly less broken), and I wouldn't exactly say triggering it with CwDT/CwS/CoD is unreasonable either (although hilarious with CoD). I would hope that whatever changes happen to CoC wouldn't necessitate removing Discharge's ability to be triggered (though I would hope that Discharge becomes a little more reasonable to self-cast too... that manacost is just far too much for the degree of preparation you need elsewhere).

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Shppy wrote:

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raics wrote:

Selfcast Discharge is a nifty and fun spell but far from broken, triggering it is broken and I think they should also make it selfcast-only, whether CoC gets nerfed or not. I suppose they will be able to revert Myolner to 50% in that case, it isn't overly powerful with other spells.

I'm kinda on the fence, cuz on the one hand CoC is obviously broken with discharge, but on the other hand I've enjoyed using CoMK with it (which is significantly less broken), and I wouldn't exactly say triggering it with CwDT/CwS/CoD is unreasonable either (although hilarious with CoD). I would hope that whatever changes happen to CoC wouldn't necessitate removing Discharge's ability to be triggered (though I would hope that Discharge becomes a little more reasonable to self-cast too... that manacost is just far too much for the degree of preparation you need elsewhere).

Sure, I wouldn't say no to a wee cooldown either, that would work too.