It's time for preleveled/preascended characters to enter the shop or be made available somehow.

"

Xtorma wrote:

This could only be in softcore, it could never be in hardcore. The reason why is that you would be able to buy your way past potential disqualifiers, namely death.

Would you say that someone who dies in normal/ cruel and then buys a naked merciless character would have a high or low chance of survival?

I think that, if this were to be implemented, it would have the most use in hardcore leagues and bring more life into them, since people would possibly not just quit after their favourite char died given the alternative option.

Speaking of experience, i mostly give up on hc after i die on a high lvl char and have no inclination to go through normal and cruel to reach high levels again.

So according to that, i'd like to hear your opinions as to why this would not work in a hardcore enviroment.

It's pay to win and it'll never be added

"

Turtledove wrote:

"

Xtorma wrote:

This could only be in softcore, it could never be in hardcore. The reason why is that you would be able to buy your way past potential disqualifiers, namely death.

I take you are referring to the bragging rights factor? If so, I agree that's a good point. As a potential solution, perhaps GGG could tag the pre-leveled characters somehow with a Star or some kind of symbol after the character name or have the name always end in "_PL" or something?

Not bragging rights, mechanics. Skipping 60 levels of potential disqualification nullifies the whole spirit of hardcore.

"

Xtorma wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

"

Xtorma wrote:

This could only be in softcore, it could never be in hardcore. The reason why is that you would be able to buy your way past potential disqualifiers, namely death.

I take you are referring to the bragging rights factor? If so, I agree that's a good point. As a potential solution, perhaps GGG could tag the pre-leveled characters somehow with a Star or some kind of symbol after the character name or have the name always end in "_PL" or something?

Not bragging rights, mechanics. Skipping 60 levels of potential disqualification nullifies the whole spirit of hardcore.

For you but not for everyone. No one would be forced to use pre-leveled characters. So I don't think you would have to use it if you didn't want to?

It's not a bad idea, imo.

Pre-leveled chars are available for a price in a lot of games from 3rd party vendors... Including PoE.

It would be optional, like running the lab if the ascendancy points weren't gated behind it. :)

Anyway, as has been said on here before, PoE "hard core" isn't really HC in the truly accepted sense of the word.

PoE hc is like a soft core version of real HC.

I can't see GGG ever ok'ing this idea though, simply because of their policy on how this game of theirs is supposed to be played.

Grind, grind, grind.

GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGrind!

"

Rayzabladez wrote:

It's not a bad idea, imo.

Pre-leveled chars are available for a price in a lot of games from 3rd party vendors... Including PoE.

It would be optional, like running the lab if the ascendancy points weren't gated behind it. :)

Anyway, as has been said on here before, PoE "hard core" isn't really HC in the truly accepted sense of the word.

PoE hc is like a soft core version of real HC.

I can't see GGG ever ok'ing this idea though, simply because of their policy on how this game of theirs is supposed to be played.

Grind, grind, grind.

GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGrind!

Definitely.

I have my own opinions about why it wouldn't fit with HC, but that mostly boils down to the idea that HC is about being tested at all stages of the game while SC is about experiencing as much content as you want.

As for grind...

I've played over 3,000 hours of Phantasy Star Online (on GameCube). I have uncountable hours in EverQuest, WoW, and several other MMOs combined. I played D2 before its official release, and continued to play it off and on until a couple years ago, having put countless hours into each patch. Played a lot of Torchlight 1 & 2. And those are just off the top of my head in the two genres closest to PoE (though PoE isn't technically an MMO by normal standars).

I know what grind looks like.

The sad thing is that GGG doesn't seem to distinguish between "fun" grind and grinding for grinding's sake. Using another f2p game as an example, Warframe is very grindy, but the gameplay and customization in that game are so fun that it's really about those features rather than the grind. The level cap for any given frame or gear is only 30 (discounting Forma), which emphasizes this point further. The main thing that allows those features to stand in front of the grind is that accessing more challenging content does not take very long; you can always put yourself at the limit of your build and skill.

The "free" alternative (to paid lvl 60 start)--as in not paid for by players, but paid for in dev time--is to introduce the "always have challenge available" concept in some form to the game. Here's the important part, though: more challenge must provide better reward, or that model falls apart. As much as D3 did wrong in its design, they nailed this point perfectly. When comparing D3 to Warframe in the context of this concept, it's easy to see how they both fulfilled the "more challenge presents more reward" requirement, but the implementation was vastly different. PoE doesn't need to copy those styles to achieve the same thing, but it could if the devs don't feel like being so creative or if it's just simpler to.

Either way, the leveling experience in the game's current state is unsatisfying, unfun, and unrewarding--but still grindy. That's really the crux of the issue. Many players seem to agree, and it's a common attitude among streamers. What's the point of a drawn out leveling process when all the players care about is "end game?" There's a reason that everyone runs through as fast as they can, skipping whatever they can: It holds no value to their player experience. It's merely a hindrance, an obstacle, an annoyance.

As has been stated a few times before in this thread, a lvl 60 start isn't the only solution to the issue--it's just the easiest all around, because it takes the least dev time and would earn more much money than it would cost. The choice really is to allow the players that want to skip it the option to, or add value to the leveling experience. The only value that exists there currently is strictly for new players.

"

lagwin1980 wrote:

It's pay to win and it'll never be added

Err, what are you winning exactly?

"

ThenThereIsRime wrote:

"

lagwin1980 wrote:

It's pay to win and it'll never be added

Err, what are you winning exactly?

We can probably figure this out if we work together. I'll start:

You're not winning the race to 100, since that was over weeks earlier.

You're not winning the race to 40/40 for the same reason.

You're not winning the race to being insanely rich, since an instant level 60 a month into the league is as relevant to wealth for big traders as a platypus.

You're not winning at high level PVP because there are already plenty of characters at nearly max level with way more passives than you. Ha ha, just kidding, you're not winning at PVP because nobody plays PVP.

Even if we replace "win" with "gain a relevant advantage," I can't think of a single thing. Anybody have any other ideas?

"You're not winning at PvP because you suck"

XD