Map drop is NOT fine and it is killing the fun

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Char1983 wrote:

While true, this is true for about 75% of the threads here. Not saying that makes it any better, but I have the feeling you just point it out in this thread because you dislike the OP. You for example did not point it out in the "map drops are fine" thread, where also several of exist already, while not as many.

I use to love this sub because it use to have great ideas, which the thing with great ideas is it's unlikely for similar threads to pop up about those issues. People can agree but the OP tends to put effort into what he's saying. With threads like these it's some dude thinking his point is more important than a reply to the other thread because he really feels it needs to be heard, but adds nothing. I'm not a forum mod, not my job to clean up the forums and pick out every useless thread so I'll stick to the ones that catch my eye as obviously wasted space that's getting attention. Many useless threads just die off quickly, every "maps suck" thread is getting 5 pages min. Which in fairness, like half the comments are people defending maps.

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IF GGG agreed with me, which they probably don't (but they do not communicate either), they could change things very fast. There is a difference between developing an expansion with new skills, tile sets, mechanics, monsters etc. and tweaking a few numbers. How long did it take them to implement the 4x more uniques buff (which I didn't like all that much, btw)? A day, maybe two?

You think a major part of the game just gets balanced in a couple hours? That unique change was probably discussed for months prior to really think about what it would do to the game. Changing maps is not a small undertaking and they have to actually balance it around what they want.

Also, don't share your ignorance as a lack of communication. The dev manifesto is a lack of communication?

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Qarl wrote:

Maps in the level 80 to 82 range are rarely run relative to other maps. This is intended; these maps are supposed to be dangerous and special, and are also intended to be not sustained in the same way as other maps. Expert players can (and do) maintain 79+ map level runs, but within the range are forced to play a variety of maps. We do also see more hoarding of maps in this level range, where players often choose to not run these maps (we assume until they improve their character).

In summary, we have achieved many goals we set out to achieve - more players are mapping, and finding their way into deeper maps.

Is that vague? Did he not make his intention clear using the words "this is intended"?

How about this Dev manifesto post?

I'm sure with minimal effort I can find probably hundreds of posts on the forums and reddits with GGG addressing mapping issues. Just because they aren't responding to every whiny thread that is demanding handouts doesn't mean they aren't working out exactly what THEY want from maps. Remember, it's what they want to achieve balanced with what we want. I want to sustain t15 doing only white maps because that would be best for me, but I understand they have their vision so I try to see if the compromise works for me. I see a lack of that in every one of these threads, it's purely about personal wants rather than a balance between the two, it's a losing fight. You're not putting up millions to keep things running, if it's a deal breaker quit.

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To me, content progression feels very punishing, because there is no progression.

Even if you're only going to T9, you're PROGRESSING 9 map levels. In that process you're probably getting close to 20 or more levels. WTF is progressing exactly to you?

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1) It seems like the sustainable level is different for different people. For me, it seems like it is T9, though I am not 100% sure whether I could sustain T10. Other people claim to do that with blue maps. So either the RNG is bugged, or the variance is too high over too long time scales.

It's not bugged, it's knowing how to roll maps, what mods to look for, knowing when to when currency, when you don't have to and understanding you're playing the long game so spending 30c on a lower map isn't going to suddenly give you a 50 map carto of all +2 maps, that you're going to grind so adjust.

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2) The sustainability level is dependent on your wealth. The more wealthy you are (or the better you are at flipping currency), the easier it is to sustain high-level maps. Now, I don't want to flip currency because I do not want to rip off other people. So I am not as rich as others, besides, I do need my wealth to buy gear every once in a while.

Bullshit. In rampage I got to 99 with buying maps based off my trading which I didn't have extreme luck and I hate flipping. In the 1m bl/tor race I didn't even buy maps, I sustain 77+ after the first week purely from my drops. Trading to get chisels mostly, making alts and regals myself to roll the maps. Yes, all of them were blue then regaled, same plan with this league as I've found a build I want to take to high levels so I'm going to give it a shot.

Sustaining from DROPS doesn't depend on wealth, that's a knowledge and numbers game. Sustaining from BUYING maps, requires wealth. Which those people have more currency than they know what to do with so they just pour it into maps.

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3) The sustainable level is very low compared to the highest tier maps, given the fact that +2 map drops have been disabled. T9 is six tiers away from T15, which in practice for me means that I never play a T15. I am about to finish my T13s soon (a Courtyard finally dropped to me), but T15s? Never.

How many people in the high 90s have to come forward and say they did fine getting to that level doing mostly gorges? Again, if your only hope is to experience a map like you said in the other thread, just fucking buy it already. If you're hope is to sustain high maps, well no shit, it's intended you shouldn't be able to without high knowledge, playtime, trading and/or currency. So stop with these conflicting arguments. I think I can fork over an ex in standard myself if it will shut you up.

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We do want more maps, yes. If T11 or T12 was sustainable, that would be a different thing. And lead to more interesting gameplay. Cause really, grinding T8s or T9s? Why? In the more general sense of things. Why not let the player decide a bit more freely what he wants to grind?

What's the 1 level difference? It's such a minor point to argue over and I'm positive that most people aren't sharing your same feelings. Also if it was T11 people would want T12, and so on.


We keep having the same arguments, you keep trying from different angles and now you're just echoing shit other people have said without any personal experience of your own. Go grind to 100, put yourself in a spot where you really are forced to sustain maps. Look how much you learn about mapping when you research what guys like Havoc, Etup and other streamers are doing to stay in high maps, grind to high levels quickly.

The common theme I see in most of the posts is the person complaining is getting towards the mid-90s and notices they're getting fuck all for experience per map and thinks that it's a lack of good maps that's holding them back from leveling when realistically if they had an endless supply of the highest map available it still would take way longer than they'd like to keep leveling.

People...

Imagine if you did a tier 1 and dropped a tier 2, did a tier 2 and dropped a tier 3, and so on. Can you imagine how boring it would be?

GGG increases map drops, players whine for more map drops. GGG increases map drops again and makes carto boxes more common, players whine again for more map drops.

Suffice it to say that there is no amount of increase to map drops that GGG can make that will not result in players whining about map drops.

If you find yourself complaining about map drops, remind yourself of all the things you can do that can potentially result in greater map drops. Are you running a full party with a culler? Are you paying for expensive zana mods? Are you rolling amazing maps and then vaal orbing them to make them even crazier? Are you putting 3 sac pieces into every map for that little bump to iiq? And, if you are already doing all of those things and still feel compelled to whine and complain about it, couldn't you be hunting map drops right now instead of clogging the forum up with more "whaaa I want the game to be easier" posts?

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johnKeys wrote:

@mynameisonlyforthegods,

take it from a long-time player in this game - and a very longtime fan of anything "RPG" in a broader sense that includes D&D (among other things) - content gating by anything other than player skill and willingness to rise up to a challenge, only makes some sense when you have very little content or challenge to speak of.

well Path Of Exile has plenty of both at this point.

I remember your name. I used to silently disagree with most of what you posted before I took a break. As I remember you vouched for SF/SSF play style and complained about how the game wasn't fit for those styles. Might be mixing you up with someone else though.

You dropped a very biiiiiiiiiiiig bomb here though. You say PoE has "plenty of content and challenge", and considering we're talking about end game/maps, you mean end game/map content. However, you didn't bother elaborating at all what this content actually is. It just so happens that I very much disagree with your claim and would like you to tell in as much detail as possible what exactly this "plentiful challenging content" is?

bother reading more of the same post then, and you'll know I'm talking about quantity of content, and sheer amount of "raw material" GGG can work with to create the set known as "end-game".

In all seriousness: Did you ever thought about, what would happen if you could continously play the top tier (12-15) maps? Do you really think, people are happy then ?

Back to back, we could do sustain Lv78 (Courty, Palace) with nearly alt+aug+regal (packsize). Yet there were still complains. So what would change this time ?

Nowadays, you dont see much complain about XP penalty; i bet, these going to be the next "map drops are bad" threads. Nowadays, you see some threads about more alternatives to maps; these going to be the next "trading sucks" threads.

And now imagine, you run all day long t15, you die here and there, loosing your 10% experience. The next complain will be about the experience curve; it ends all with the fact, that people want easy peasy Lv100 chars.

You want to enjoy challenging end-game content? Why you dont farm your way to üAtziri? Shes harder then any map GGG can offer you. Why you dont challenge yourself to be self-found? Why you dont develop challenges with your buddies ? Why you dont buy that t15 you want to see?

Yea, because you want an easy peasy lv100 char. Fuck off.

Im playing video games since im a 14 yo (20 years now). I played a lot of mmos and arpgs and end-game was somehow always gated behind some walls.

Some Examples:


Do you really want Path of Exile to be a gear check? Like really? All the other games died or dying because of that route. A 3-Button Hack 'n Slash will never be a skill check. PoE just dont offers this. All you need is knowledge, not playskill (or nearly none). Or do you really want it to be like D2, grinding Baals for 10h/day (same Map..)? Or D3, where you are basically done after 2 weeks ? Is your attention span this short?

So, yea, i think gating Maps/Gear behind RNG is good. It increases the replayability substantial. It makes you feel good if you drop that fucking red map. It makes you fucking angry if you drop that Mud Geysir from a Core Malachai you died 4 times and fought 15 minutes. It makes you jump from your chair if the freaking Occultist Vestment drops or you finally 6L after 3k or even 10 fusings.

All these emotional reactions are PoE.


...



What will PoE be without them?

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johnKeys wrote:

content gating by anything other than player skill and willingness to rise up to a challenge, only makes some sense when you have very little content or challenge to speak of.

well Path Of Exile has plenty of both at this point.

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johnKeys wrote:

sheer amount of "raw material" GGG can work with to create the set known as "end-game".

You're contradicting yourself. You say PoE has that content and challenge already, yet you speak about creating a 'new' end game out of this "raw material" or whatever. It looks like you're still just speaking words. This topic isn't about theorizing what kind of game PoE would be if GGG made your dream game, it's about reality and what is and isn't in PoE currently.

Unless you bring a valid and meaningful opinion and/or argument to the table, I'm more inclined to agree with Char1983's opinion of map drops being utter shit and vouch for a massive boost in drop rates rather than replying to you again in this topic.

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Moosifer wrote:

Is that vague? Did he not make his intention clear using the words "this is intended"?

Running maps for half a year, having characters level 94/93/91 while not playing exactly carefully and thus dying quite a bit, never seeing a T15 map and only one T14 map drop, is that intended? That is the question. And the question also is: With lots of people complaining, is their intention to wait until all those people quit? A friend of mine who got to lvl 100 in the flashback event recently moved to D3...

I don't give a shit what GGG communicates on reddit BTW, that is not communication. You cannot expect someone to read reddit. This game has a forum, so they better use it.

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Moosifer wrote:

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To me, content progression feels very punishing, because there is no progression.

Even if you're only going to T9, you're PROGRESSING 9 map levels. In that process you're probably getting close to 20 or more levels. WTF is progressing exactly to you?

And then? Progress ends there. No progress any more. I just ran a 150% IIQ 20% packsize Village ruin with 30% magic monsters and 29% rare monsters. I got a Plateau from a non-magic, non-rare mob. That was it. No other map drops. That is the reverse of progress, which I don't know what it is called in English to be honest.



Besides, I wonder if people will ever stop treating me as if I don't know how to roll maps. There is no magic behind that, and if one would be doing the statistics, spending Chaos on any map below T13 is probably a bad idea anyways.

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AttackDingo wrote:

Imagine if you did a tier 1 and dropped a tier 2, did a tier 2 and dropped a tier 3, and so on. Can you imagine how boring it would be?

We're not asking for a constant increase in map availability, we're asking for content to be gated by our own skill level, not by pseudorandomness.

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AttackDingo wrote:

GGG increases map drops, players whine for more map drops. GGG increases map drops again and makes carto boxes more common, players whine again for more map drops.

Suffice it to say that there is no amount of increase to map drops that GGG can make that will not result in players whining about map drops.

If you want to argue a point, try using somewhat more neutral words, such as "complaint" instead of "whine". There were very few complaints over map drops just prior to 2.0, but there has been a decent amount ever since because... drop rates are still far worse then they were.

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AttackDingo wrote:

If you find yourself complaining about map drops, remind yourself of all the things you can do that can potentially result in greater map drops. Are you running a full party with a culler?

Apart from the IIR of a culler resulting in more unique maps (as unique maps drop as an item, not as a map) a culler does noting whatsoever to boost map drops.

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AttackDingo wrote:

Are you paying for expensive zana mods? Are you rolling amazing maps and then vaal orbing them to make them even crazier? Are you putting 3 sac pieces into every map for that little bump to iiq?

I'm spending far more currency on rolling high maps than I get in return. By now most people running high tier maps know how they're supposed to roll them.

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AttackDingo wrote:

And, if you are already doing all of those things and still feel compelled to whine and complain about it, couldn't you be hunting map drops right now instead of clogging the forum up with more "whaaa I want the game to be easier" posts?

It's not a matter of making the game easier, gating content behind pseudorandomness doesn't in any way, shape or form make it "hard", it just makes it less accessible.
So you mean that, instead of arguing about something we find crucial to our experience of the game and subsequently our continued playing of the game, we should rather just grind on and eventually stop playing altogether? That's a real useful approach to things in life in general. Oh your lunch is cold, you got a stone in your shoe, the government are imposing a strict one-beer-per-year limit, some neighbourhood kid is giving your kid a black eye every friday afternoon - better not voice your opinion and try doing something, but let everyone who has a different opinion set the agenda.

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mynameisonlyforthegods wrote:

You're contradicting yourself.

no, I am not.
challenge is there, but not the kind of challenge I'd personally like to see.
GGG have enough "raw material" to make the kind of challenge I'd like to see.
but quantity is there, even if quality - to me - isn't.

now why don't you stop combing the text string by string and char by char looking for contradictions, and just read what I'm trying to say?
unbiased, unprejudiced, un-fucking-backwards. start to finish.
hard I know, but doable. even if you "remember my name", pretend you don't.

unless it is *too* hard, for you? in which case I'm going to learn from mistakes of forum past and just stop replying to you right now, after 2 relatively short posts, instead of pages full of text the recipient of which had no intention understanding in the first place.
disagreeing maybe, but understanding.

so tell me, what is it going to be?

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Astarte911 wrote:

In all seriousness: Did you ever thought about, what would happen if you could continously play the top tier (12-15) maps? Do you really think, people are happy then ?

I would be a lot more happy with the game than I am now.

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Astarte911 wrote:

Back to back, we could do sustain Lv78 (Courty, Palace) with nearly alt+aug+regal (packsize). Yet there were still complains. So what would change this time ?

The fact that we would have 7 times as many maps to run, 14 (Overgrown Ruin, Village Ruin, Arsenal, Shipyard, Waterways, Courtyard, Wasteland, Excavation, Shrine, Conservatory, Palace, Abyss, Colosseum, Core) instead of 2 (Courtyard, Palace). 17 if you include T11 maps and make sure the randomness of map drops (+2, potentially +3 from boss) allows for playing T15 every once in a while.

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Astarte911 wrote:

people want easy peasy Lv100 chars.

You fundamentally misunderstand what some people, including me, want.

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Astarte911 wrote:

You want to enjoy challenging end-game content? Why you dont farm your way to üAtziri?

Because the grinding process is long, very long, and boring. Just like with maps.

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Astarte911 wrote:

Yea, because you want an easy peasy lv100 char. Fuck off.

No I don't.