How should incinerate be rebalanced? Vote now

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goetzjam wrote:

People doing dps comparisons of level 4 incinerate LOL. Completely neglecting the fact that takes time to ramp up to and never exceeds that damage, unlike every other spell, which can crit.

Yeah ramp up needs to be considered.

Put together this spreadsheet on incinerate ramp up.

I'd say it's more realistic to multiply tooltip by 3.2 rather than 4 (if using echo+FC).

Also this sheet demonstrates that FC is a great gem for Incinerate. It increases top end DPS as well as ramp up speed.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

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TheAnuhart wrote:

I'm kinda puzzled as to how you arrived at the conclusion that I was claiming any of the things you dismissed

This is the part I'm responding to:

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TheAnuhart wrote:

Some builds can utilise FC and it's a no-brainer, some can for tooltip dps but not be as good an all round build than if using another support instead.

Telling someone "Simply put, if you believe Incinerate is not always supported by Spell Echo and Faster Casting, your feedback is invalid, leave thread now." is not only rude, but actually quite funny as the party lacking validity in feedback seems to be you. The door.

Scrotie is usually correct, and he was correct to tell people who don't use faster casting to be quiet.

As far as I can tell the point of your build is to run any map mods. Well Anapoe's build can run literally any map mods at double the effectiveness (damage) of your build, so your build is pointless (from a power point of view). If the point of your build is survivability, I believe he eclipses you on that front too. He's done all the 81-82 bosses deathless, whereas there's a gif of you almost dying to a 75 orchard boss in your own thread? As a result whether you use faster casting or not is meaningless to whether faster casting-supported incinerate is something that should be considered. The fact that the best incinerate builds use it, means it should typically be used. The rest is noise.

It's like saying SRS not supported by spell echo isn't OP so SRS isn't OP, a completely meaningless argument.

There is no gif of me with an orchard boss. You are mistaken. If you are talking about the gif Do3boy posted using a marauder (for lols) testing a very early and obsolete version of the build, nothing to do with me. He was also using FC, lol.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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TheAnuhart wrote:

You should probably look at the 2nd build (post #2) that's the real build, which the first converts to, one might think you had by reading what you wrote, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I noticed an alternate build one post down, which has Blood Dance boots. Didn't look at anything else. But since Blood Dance means no Vaal Pact (I assume), once again, Faster Casting is definitely ideal for that build, and you should switch over. You're overly obsessed with literally-zero cost.

ZO.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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TheAnuhart wrote:

You should probably look at the 2nd build (post #2) that's the real build, which the first converts to, one might think you had by reading what you wrote, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I noticed an alternate build one post down, which has Blood Dance boots. Didn't look at anything else. But since Blood Dance means no Vaal Pact (I assume), once again, Faster Casting is definitely ideal for that build, and you should switch over. You're overly obsessed with literally-zero cost.

ZO.

Sigh. Fine. But I still stand by the bold part; having the right supports for Incinerate within the context of a particular build is one thing, having the right supports for Incinerate within the overall optimization context is another. Incinerate is more than just "this can be a free spell" (which is itself kind of ridiculous), it can have a lot more DPS potential than you're allowing it.

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Going back to my earlier suggestion to have Incinerate gain Lightning Tendril's behavior (four casts per skill activation, skill time goes to 0.8 seconds, increased mana cost), I think in return Lightning Tendrils should acquire something similar to Incinerate's behavior - for example, cast time down to 0.2 seconds, one cast per skill activation, mana cost starting at 2 and gaining 1 per 3 glvls). TheAnuhart's builds show that free skills are a huge fascination for some players, regardless of all this optimization talk it's obvious he finds free Incinerate to be fun. I just don't think it should be Incinerate, because "gets stronger as you channel" and "free" shouldn't intersect in the Venn diagram of balance. Lightning Tendrils is a far better fit for the "free" role.

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goetzjam wrote:

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lolozori wrote:

canceling spell echo option is the best IMO

Have you tried to make an incinerate build without spell echo? You haven't because the mana cost is unbearable.

Like always ignorant people with ignorant suggestions to nerf really the only good spell (dont bring totems into this)

So maybe would use skills in a smart manner instead of spamming it like brainless people.

You are also implying Incinerate is made for mana users when maybe BM would be the way to go instead.

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lolozori wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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lolozori wrote:

canceling spell echo option is the best IMO

Have you tried to make an incinerate build without spell echo? You haven't because the mana cost is unbearable.

Like always ignorant people with ignorant suggestions to nerf really the only good spell (dont bring totems into this)

So maybe would use skills in a smart manner instead of spamming it like brainless people.

You are also implying Incinerate is made for mana users when maybe BM would be the way to go instead.

Its a channeled freaking spell you can't "use it in a smart manner" either you click it until the enemies die or you go oom, in which case what do you do against single target. Absolutely no spell should be a "bm spell" even attacks have had their cost reduced in order to encourage mana use instead.

If you are suggesting BM keystone that is just bad and further locks the skill behind a keystone and reduces the damage (cause less auras)

Its funny to me people are always focusing one 1-2 builds, when theres 1/2 dozen or more builds in the meta. Why isn't this discussion on making any of the other spells useable instead of destroying the only useable one? After the changes in 2.0 you can't just say the other spells aren't popular because "incinerate is just better" that isn't true, the true part is you cannot defensively build a caster as they were neutered in every way when 2.0 hit, I have no idea why anyone thought the changes to EB\MOM\AA was a good idea.

Please tell me you've built a caster in 2.0 and its successful, but you feel like you are "cheated" if you don't go incinerate? The only change that is more favorable to casters in 2.0 is the reflect change, which still can be a huge issue if you have super high single target.

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goetzjam wrote:

Why isn't this discussion on making any of the other spells useable instead of destroying the only useable one?

"Destroying" is a bit dramatic, but in general this thread should be about both topics. For example, in my last post I proposed changing Lightning Tendrils to give it one of the qualities which attracts people to Incinerate, while removing that property from Incinerate. That would promote skill variety by having different skills fill different niches.

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grepman wrote:

poison arrow is clearly op, compared to most other builds

Fixed.

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TreeOfDead wrote:

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grepman wrote:

poison arrow is clearly op, compared to most other builds

Fixed.

they are not mutually exclusive, you know. they both are extremely op.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

Linking to your own build as an argument for why builds don't use faster casting is kind of silly. You don't even mention your tooltip DPS anywhere in your OP, so I will assume it's decent but not amazing 20-30k LMP? Your incinerate build is not the strongest variant on the skill. Check out character Anapoe (63k LMP + 8k LIFE not ES), or this guy's build (200k SP + 5k life + 75/75 block). Both have better survivability than your character as well as double or more DPS. Both also use faster casting...

You realize that 200k picture is with max buffs, right? (it's also 40/41 block, unless you pretend the single rumi flask has 100% uptime, nor is that 200k picture with 5k life (4417 life based on my calculation for the dps tree (his characters current life total is ~4773.4)). Also has basically no armor/physical mitigation aside from endurance charges from CWDT warlord's mark, which he wouldn't have in co-op, no dodge/spell dodge, poor evasion, -60% chaos resist, and would likely see incinerate channeling get interrupted quite frequently from stuns, I'm assuming after every physical hit due to that sub 200 armor value).

Buff wise, we're looking at atziri flask + legacy rumi's flask (to boost Cybil) + 7 frenzy charges + blood rage + vaal haste + empowered anger + empowered haste in a +2 aura helm with enlighten 4 + righteous fire (which probably can't even be sustained without popping the single ruby flask and swapping a dps aura for purity of fire) + who knows what else, on a level 28 incinerate, without LMP, without faster projectiles, and using iron will instead of fire penetration just to boost the tooltip number. Also uses 10 jewel sockets with reduced casting cost + triple dps stat jewels. If we tried to inflate tooltip numbers in similar ways for spells that could crit (throw in a diamond flask, etc), million+ tooltip numbers would be seen.

IMO incinerate is a scapegoat for more pressing balance concerns, such as 1. that skills at level 28 tend to do over 100% more damage than skills at level 20 (which affects all the "problem" skills, like SRS, poison arrow, explosive arrow, etc., and makes balancing the high end impossible without gimping the low end, since a character starting over would still be working on a level 19 gem at level 90), 2. that jewels are so OP the optimal class for every build is scion, and the optimal skill tree for every build involves grabbing as many jewel sockets as possible, and 3. that frenzy was probably over buffed, and in combination with EB/mana changes and leech changes, creates a meta where elreon gear sells like hotcakes and the regen from blood dance boots is OP.