Genuine Golem Feedback

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pneuma wrote:

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Boem wrote:

However slayer, going from your post. Is there a choice from a summoners perspective?

I only see the chaos golem being relevant in this case, but i might be missing something.

That's quite true. Chaos Golem will certainly be getting the most use afaict, with Fire a distant second and Ice a non-existent third.

Socket pressure on the standard zombie/spectre summoner will make CG a pretty tight fit. I don't think most will have the free sockets to give up to make CG worthwhile.

For SRS, MA/BA, and/or Animate, CG should be an easy and obvious fit.

Hybrid summoners aren't exactly top shelf, even if the golems exist almost perfectly for them. I wouldn't be surprised to see a viable hybrid caster/summoner making use of Fire Golem, but I don't think that's enough to make it really competitive with other summoner varieties.

Dominating Blow is an interesting case. Any of Fire/Ice/Chaos will be quite strong for a Dom Blow character and they usually have the sockets free to allow for it.

The ice golem is a very strong fit for a melee hybrid summoner, once i get into beta this will be my first test.

I still believe they should offer a small yet decisive bonus for summons though. Like the bonusses i mentioned before, they are small but could in theory tip the scale to one or the other, which imo is all that is required at this point since they are obviously already in very good hands in a summoner build.

Personally i would like if it is not "chaos golem or GTFO" for summoners, even if the choice is obvious once your build is completed or theory-crafted i would like to see a different use for different summoner set-ups.



To put it simply, they could be perfectly fine in the current iteration already if we see new forms of summoners rise with them.

Peace,

-Boem-

Well I could imagine a Minion-Ranger using his clones and an Ice-Golem, but right now there doesn't seem to be too much to support such a playstyle and a summoner has to give up something or golems, since the gem-slots are very limited (not to mention the skill-slots as well).

I'm positive that the chaos-golem will see use, since it might do decent without supports on a summoner so you don't sacrifice much.

Ya ranger has her mirror arrows etc. That's a gem slot. It's only good to have some options. But, I kinda like mirror arrow more. Both seems useful though

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Thejunior wrote:

After watching many streamers for a day after making this post. I can say with ease that most streamers seem to be going for the Chaos Golem for it's Damage reduction, and the golem just doesn't die out - it actually stays alive quite well even in maps compared to other golems and if you're playing HC, you basically want to keep this up at all times.

If you re playing hardcore you basically have to keep up endurance charges all the time as well.
Same goes for arctic armor and maybe even purities depending on the situation. So what is the difference here as far as CG si concerned? Have you done threads for all the other (apparently) mandatory defense choices?

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Thejunior wrote:

This is still early in to the beta, most likely to change but it support's quite well my original concern about the golems, which is almost a roleplay issue. I don't like how as a 2-hander I'll have to keep a summon up to increase my defense or offence.

Well, that is your OCD speaking. Simply because you dont like smn thematically, doesn't mean its bad or designed badly. You could say the same thing about every "class". Does it seem cool to you that mages have to "shout" warcries in order to increase their defenses (and endu charges ARE mandatory, pretty much)?

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Thejunior wrote:

Summoning skills should be pointed towards summoners.

No, not really.
Seeing there are things like dominating blow in PoE and even other games have death knight-type classes (a fighter-esque character with minions to help him kill stuff) i don't think while you would say something like that is set in stone. Especially in PoE, almost nothing is set in stone. You have the freedom to create your own "classes". So your "point" falls once again to "personal opinion/how i believe things are or should be" and shouldn't be used as part of a valid argument.

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Thejunior wrote:

Naturally a summoner like any other build wants to stay alive by any means available so the Chaos Golem is the way to go ( since the auras you get from the other 2 do not effect your other minions ) , and you'll also get the + life/dmg for the golem from your talents but every other golem is an entirely other decision to make, and it comes down to the sockets available in your gear ( can you set it up? ) While you have 3x4 and possibly 2x6 sockets available.

With Fortify+Increased minion life your Golem won't just die all the time.

So what is the problem here? You sacrifice slots to make smn happen.
The thing is *that smn*, is in NO WAY mandatory as a cwdt combo was (not even close).
And that was your whole argument in the beginning (how golems are mandatory). Which they wont be.
Bonuses are nice, 1 extra endu charge is nice (C. golem) but in no way mandatory, nor game breaking.

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Thejunior wrote:

TLDR: Mercs such as golems should not be forced into every build like CWDT was.

Cool, they aren't [unless you think that 4% defense(CG)=physical immunity(CWDTcombo)]
Hell, using that logic every defensive skill is mandatory and most of the time, thematically out of place (shouting shadows/witches,etc).

^ I can't quote all that because there is a little too much stuff already, but I'll try to answer you with 1,2,3 etc.

1) If you want to continue your logic, you could then only pick health nodes and nodes that will increase your survivability but that's not the point of the game either, there needs to be a balance of offence and defense so you can even play. The point is, while you can't run AA or have all Endurance charges, MoM etc up on every character, when you eliminate the penalty of any given damage or defense increase, then there is no decision to make - is there?, You'll just have it and therefore benefit from it, or you'll choose not to have it and don't benefit. It didn't take any extra preparation or gearing towards this benefit. You'll just have it or not, so Is there a decision to make? I don't think so.

2-3) You say it's my OCD speaking. Granted, I don't like how the golem looks, how the AI behaves or how it is in general. I think I mentioned earlier Golem VS CWDT, golem is very visible, cwdt was not.
Now PoE has always been a very versatile game and I like this, I like interesting builds and play styles it is why I play the game after all. But why Summoning skills shouldn't be pointed towards summoners is - why not really? - If you want to go deeper into your counter-logic, You don't see CI builds running with too much + increased max life gear or points spent in the talent tree, while it's certainly possible and not set in stone as you say. While dominating blow gets you minions, it's still a skill for melee, not for summoners.

4) The gem slots, now, CWDT and other such life saving little tricks were extremely helpful vs Devoures, leapers, drop bears and such. It took 4 slots, but now that those are free to use again, Why not have the golem there? IF you'd like to use the golem for such purpose even a ring with 1 socket free, is enough to keep the golem up when you go from a pack to pack for those surprise attacks to keep you alive from the inital hit. And sacrificing Golem+Fortify+iml+life leech, for a permanent damage reduction with the penalty of only losing those slots to be available for something else (which is a penalty for every skill if you want to even think about it that way). That's the only decision to make - Do I put these gems in these sockets or not?

5) There's some really nice discussion going on about Golems right now and I see people compare them to D2 merc's and other such companion systems, while you can't equip them or give pots to them. Without a penalty to having them, it's a fair comparison to make. You are now free to continue your approach to chat in forums, shitting on everything you see without anything to really contribute to the original ''argument'' as you say.

This is very much how I feel about this golem situation and I've spoken to many of my friends, some agree and some don't. That's just how it is.

Summoner skill, or not summoner skill?

Well, if it's designed to scale well with minion gear and passives, then for balance reasons it'll probably end up as a skill only summoner use. Which isn't horrible if you're a summoner.

However, if you want it to be a skill type pretty much everyone uses - essentially, more D2 mercenary than minion - then they exact opposite is true. You'd want to actively combat the normal means summoner use for scaling (outside of support gems) to ensure the non-summoner builds have a usable golem without the summoner golem being OP.

It definitely seems that the golems were designed with the latter in mind.

In a game where min-maxing is the rule, they're mandatory

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Summoner skill, or not summoner skill?
However, if you want it to be a skill type pretty much everyone uses - essentially, more D2 mercenary than minion - then they exact opposite is true. You'd want to actively combat the normal means summoner use for scaling (outside of support gems) to ensure the non-summoner builds have a usable golem without the summoner golem being OP.

It definitely seems that the golems were designed with the latter in mind.

As someone who played numerous summoners, I am hoping for golems to be scaling properly and be usable for everyone (with 0 minion nodes). Depending on how beefy they can get by investing into minion nodes, an alternative mechanic might have to be put into place, making them class type 'golem' instead of the current 'minion'.

From what we've seen on streams in maps, when linked to minion life/minion resistance/fortify gems in a 4L item, chaos golem (supposedly the tankiest one) dies pretty fast and requires constant re-summoning. This somewhat suggests they were made with 'investing into minion nodes' in mind.

Their AI is just horribad, pretty much on the skeleton level. After watching ZiggyD in maps, I realized that only use of that chaos golem is the buff it bestows on the player. At the moment, most of the time golems spend far behind you, crashing into walls, 'breakdancing' and what not.

All in all, golems do appear as a good addition to the game, however they are not yet finalized and some adjustments will have to be made.

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It took 4 slots, but now that those are free to use again, Why not have the golem there?

GG gave us the perfect answer. Notice the Bloodlust support? Why not use this 4 slots to place a cheap AoE Puncture there or something to Fortify if you are melee. cwdt was one option... and basically the only one. Now they gave a lot more options and you can choose one of them.

I actually do feel a lot better with those golems. They don't seem to be that strong to be the end of all, but they can add something.

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Without a penalty to having them, it's a fair comparison to make.

There is a penalty to having them. You need the slots. That might be less punishing for some and more punishing for over builds, but it a penalty that applies for basically everything you use in PoE. And with Fortify, Bloodlust and maybe other new things there might be more competition for gem-slots as well.

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Emphasy wrote:

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It took 4 slots, but now that those are free to use again, Why not have the golem there?

GG gave us the perfect answer. Notice the Bloodlust support? Why not use this 4 slots to place a cheap AoE Puncture there or something to Fortify if you are melee. cwdt was one option... and basically the only one. Now they gave a lot more options and you can choose one of them.

I actually do feel a lot better with those golems. They don't seem to be that strong to be the end of all, but they can add something.

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Without a penalty to having them, it's a fair comparison to make.

There is a penalty to having them. You need the slots. That might be less punishing for some and more punishing for over builds, but it a penalty that applies for basically everything you use in PoE. And with Fortify, Bloodlust and maybe other new things there might be more competition for gem-slots as well.

I was about to reply almost the same thing so i will just quote you and save time.
4% reduction is in no way mandatory. It all comes down to what forms of defence you choose.
Before, it didnt natter. It was either cwdt combo or GTFO.