Projectiles can't shotgun?

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raics wrote:

No, certain game elements may become more powerful than intended through introduction of other elements over time, that's what happened to a number of mechanics in the game, including block.

Then make the changes when those elements are introduced into the game, not before.

Do you throw out your tomatoes because they aren't just right yet? No.

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raics wrote:

Back when it was just shields and passives with very few ways to get spell block it was fine, but now that we got uniques with block chance, block flasks and whatnot it became way too easy to cap block both permanently and temporarily. Actually, capped spell block was the bigger culprit of the two.

And what did spell block do to things like Minion Instability and Detonate Dead? Nothing. Block and dodge are absolutely useless to those.

Instead of removing block, they could've either introduced more spells that deal secondary damage, "cast" spells, degeneration-based spells (fire trap), and more.

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raics wrote:

And there's no reason to buff anything because of block removal because the game wasn't balanced for maxed block and spell block, the nerf didn't leave a gap to fill.

Why should the game be balanced for max block? It shouldn't. Not everyone should be running around with it.

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raics wrote:

However, they will buff projectiles spells because they were balanced with shotgunning in mind and for the most part weren't the reason for the removal so it left a huge gap, see the difference now?

The difference is that things like Cybil's Paw will become useless. Have you read that yet?

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Natharias wrote:

Then make the changes when those elements are introduced into the game, not before.

So, you're saying you'd be fine if block was nerfed in multiple small steps? Perhaps it would have been better, they're trying that approach currently with crit.

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Natharias wrote:

And what did spell block do to things like Minion Instability and Detonate Dead? Nothing. Block and dodge are absolutely useless to those.

Instead of removing block, they could've either introduced more spells that deal secondary damage, "cast" spells, degeneration-based spells (fire trap), and more.

Why would block do anything to those? It's the same as asking to evade spells, no defensive method in the game should be omnipotent and even without that block was broken in scope, effect and investment, it had a three-way deadlock on the game. You should always try to fix just the broken part, there was no need to affect things that are currently fine, like spell dodge.

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Natharias wrote:

Why should the game be balanced for max block? It shouldn't. Not everyone should be running around with it.

It never was, and now only those that invested a lot into it are running around with max block which is what it should be like, problem solved.

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Natharias wrote:

The difference is that things like Cybil's Paw will become useless. Have you read that yet?

So you're saying they should put development on hold because of one, easy to fix unique? You know better than that.

Look, I understand, the future of your favorite build on which you base your entire PoE experience is uncertain, to say the least, so you're being obstinate on purpose. You're feeling betrayed and have the need to get it out of your system, which is perfectly fine. Open a nice, long, thread in feedback or gameplay discussion and let it all out, rant like you never ranted before, speak from the heart, make it felt and you'll feel better (eventually).

"

raics wrote:

Look, I understand, the future of your favorite build on which you base your entire PoE experience is uncertain, to say the least, so you're being obstinate on purpose. You're feeling betrayed and have the need to get it out of your system, which is perfectly fine. Open a nice, long, thread in feedback or gameplay discussion and let it all out, rant like you never ranted before, speak from the heart, make it felt and you'll feel better (eventually).

preach it

but um I gotta say, the most fun part of these games is developing the strategy, for me, so when one tower goes down u just have to make another one

natharias, erect a tower of strategy within your heart and use it to climb up and reach teh sky, and touch the heaven

for that is the true path, of, exile

"

Lord_of_Error wrote:

It's odd because there is so much completly new stuff coming. :)
Finally we no longer have to wonder how Oak got to the Wetlands without waking the Vaal Oversoul. ^_^

Truth and the game will change all through the beta so dont get stuck on any particular build.

"

raics wrote:

So, you're saying you'd be fine if block was nerfed in multiple small steps? Perhaps it would have been better, they're trying that approach currently with crit.

No?

Buff other things, like the addition of block penetration, more secondary damage, and so on. Why do I have to keep saying this?

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raics wrote:

Why would block do anything to those? It's the same as asking to evade spells, no defensive method in the game should be omnipotent and even without that block was broken in scope, effect and investment, it had a three-way deadlock on the game. You should always try to fix just the broken part, there was no need to affect things that are currently fine, like spell dodge.

That's why I said they should add more things that block can't answer for, instead of simply destroying it.

We used to have block.

Instead of adding more for us to use, they simply took out block.

Now we have neither block or the skills that could've bypassed it.

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raics wrote:

It never was, and now only those that invested a lot into it are running around with max block which is what it should be like, problem solved.

No, everyone was running max block because all of the following were true:

1. Max block was cheap. Low-life, armor, and ES gear were absolute shit. Block didn't require good RNG or massive currency.

2. Armor is still absolute shit since we have IC. No reason to use armor gear other than for socket color.

3. There's almost no secondary damage. The few instances secondary damage is present, it is weak and easily dealt with before it does its damage.

4. Degenerations were based on hits, and the few that were based on ground or AOE effects were minimal at best.

5. There weren't block penetration options, at least not significant amounts.

6. MoM allowed low-end ES gear to enhance your hit point pool enough to where max block was broken. They didn't change EB yet.

7. Block could be used as damage from Cybil's Paw. Now that isn't an option.

Max block was simply the best option. Put on a Crest of Perandus, spend maybe 30% of your passives, and you had a durable character. Now it requires more than 60% of your points AND at least three unique items to pull off.

That is not build diversity. Forcing Stone of Lazhwar, Rainbowstride (ES gear btw), and Bringer of Rain is not full of choice. I wouldn't call that a "lot" of investment, I say it's "total reliance".

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raics wrote:

So you're saying they should put development on hold because of one, easy to fix unique? You know better than that.

No, read what I'm typing raics.

If you nerf block, what changes?

Cybil's Paw becomes less powerful than a wand. Not just less powerful, but almost pointless. I'd rather have a 3k tooltip GMP incin than a 1k with LGOH. But if I could get 1.5k with LGOH, I might just keep Cybil's. Not to mention that there's no point in the block while dual wielding corrupt mod on them now. 15 + 6 + 6? Not worth it.

Block penetration, degenerations, and secondary damage become far less valuable. Their main value was to put hurt on those that put so much investment and hope on damage avoidance instead of mitigation. Why add in secondary damage skills like Detonate Dead when you can get more DPS from a regular spell? Flame Surge, for example.

"

raics wrote:

Look, I understand, the future of your favorite build on which you base your entire PoE experience is uncertain, to say the least, so you're being obstinate on purpose.

You obviously don't know me.

My favorite build is, and always will be, summoners or anything similar. If it has multiple moving parts, I love it. If it has more parts, I love it more. If I stand there and blast something without doing anything, it's boring. I hate Incinerate. But I used it since it was the cheapeast and most effective option with only a few exalts ground over two or so years.

And it's funny that you try to blame me. Look at the game. The game doesn't just hand you good gear or drops for you to experiment. You have to grind for everything you get and trade for everything you don't loot. I chose to get the cheapest thing out there and still had a hard time. Blame yourself or the game, not me.

Right, now it's clear that we disagree on all possible points, it's actually pretty astonishing. And, if I may say, you aren't really helping your cause with posts like these :)

Yup, if anyone from dev team reads this he will only be affirmed in his belief they did the right thing, in this thread you perfectly listed all the reasons they took action against block and shotgunning. Cybil was most likely a non-factor in the decision, I could bet a decent amount of currency nobody in the team even thought of it, nor would it change anything if they have.

The game was made like this on purpose, it was supposed to be an online-centric experience heavily focused on gear and economy from the very start. In such an environment, having cheap builds able to compete with expensive ones is an undesirable factor, if you follow the development closely you will notice that trend. If cheap and powerful exists, you should think of it as a mistake which will soon be remedied.
So, to make the long story short, the game was never meant to be balanced from the aspect of risk versus reward, active versus passive playstyle or focused versus creative gearing. It was meant to be 'economically balanced' and that's it, ideally, a vast majority of builds would require similar investment and the rest would serve as carrots on a stick.

So, if you try to evaluate the game within that framework, you will probably notice they are doing a pretty good job. I think results of block nerf were great (although I would have gone about it a bit differently) and was happy they finally removed shotgunning. What you're trying to do is evaluate the game outside the framework, that's your problem here.

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raics wrote:

Right, now it's clear that we disagree on all possible points, it's actually pretty astonishing. And, if I may say, you aren't really helping your cause with posts like these :)

Really? How?

Everything I've said is true. All GGG is really doing is nerfing, and it's not making anything that much better.

Armor still sucks, Immortal Call is still broken, low-life is still abused, CoC is still (at least until we see 2.0) broken, surgeon flasks are still present, and other things are around.

And what is getting nerfed? Things that don't compare to what is really problematic. Nobody bitches about incinerators, they kick CoCs and mjolners from parties.

I'm helping my cause.

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raics wrote:

Yup, if anyone from dev team reads this he will only be affirmed in his belief they did the right thing, in this thread you perfectly listed all the reasons they took action against block and shotgunning. Cybil was most likely a non-factor in the decision, I could bet a decent amount of currency nobody in the team even thought of it, nor would it change anything if they have.

Then it shows the devs are stupid, if what you say is true. Read above and look at the game.

"

raics wrote:

The game was made like this on purpose, it was supposed to be an online-centric experience heavily focused on gear and economy from the very start. In such an environment, having cheap builds able to compete with expensive ones is an undesirable factor, if you follow the development closely you will notice that trend. If cheap and powerful exists, you should think of it as a mistake which will soon be remedied.

Except block, in and of itself, wasn't broken. If you want cheap and powerful, look at Incinerate itself. I've been saying since forever that you can get 25k DPS instantly with non-maxed gems in any build with a four-link. 40k if you have two heralds and five supports. Upwards of 80k with added damage gems. What can you get with Arc in the same exact setup? Maybe 2-3k DPS. What about EK? Maybe 4-5k.

It wasn't block that was the problem.

I want to make sure I make something absolutely clear:

Just because you nerf something, it doesn't make anything else better. All it is is a nerf, and nerfs only hurt that one thing. Indirectly it can make a few other things worse as well. The only way it makes things even remotely better is when done in comparison.

Nerfing block didn't make armor any more dominant in the game; on the contrary, it's still useless. It takes a considerable amount of currency to get good armor gear, while it takes almost nothing to get IC + ID + FC + Enhance and six nodes that give you 90% duration. Oh, and that setup gives you IMMUNITY, not some mitigation.

Nerfing shotgunning isn't going to change how broken CoC and mjolner builds are. All it does is hurt the self-casters that use spells directly. Nobody is going to use spells once they get their hands on a mjolner and the enabling unique items or rare gear for it. It's simply too good to pass up.

GGG is nerfing the wrong things.

You either missed the point of this thread entirely or understand the point but have fracked up logic.

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Natharias wrote:

GGG is nerfing the wrong things.

No, my man, unfortunately, GGG is nerfing the right things. You remember those carrots I mentioned? Well, one of them is shaped like a norse god hammer.

I understand what you're trying to say perfectly, I used to think that way too. You know how the world sometimes seems too chaotic? I guess it would all make perfect sense if we understood the grand design, if there was such a thing. Well, you can bet your last exalt that PoE has a grand design and follows it as close as possible. You or me liking it has no consequence, you clap and congratulate when the opposing team scores a nice point, regardless of the fact the goal they're working for isn't to your liking.

The logic is perfectly sound, it's all in the viewport.

"

raics wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

GGG is nerfing the wrong things.

No, my man, unfortunately, GGG is nerfing the right things. You remember those carrots I mentioned? Well, one of them is shaped like a norse god hammer.

I understand what you're trying to say perfectly, I used to think that way too. You know how the world sometimes seems too chaotic? I guess it would all make perfect sense if we understood the grand design, if there was such a thing. Well, you can bet your last exalt that PoE has a grand design and follows it as close as possible. You or me liking it has no consequence, you clap and congratulate when the opposing team scores a nice point, regardless of the fact the goal they're working for isn't to your liking.

The logic is perfectly sound, it's all in the viewport.

I stand behind you raics (not doing anything perverted, I promise)

And I'm not even going to try to get into the finer points of what you two are saying but I will say that nerfing a few things that are too prevalent is better than buffing a lot of things that are less popular from a balance stand point.

Nerfs done well are good. And I don't understand people who can't get that. Balance is relative, and erring on the side of nerfs increases the challenge factor of the experience. It's win/win.

"

BearCares wrote:

I stand behind you raics (not doing anything perverted, I promise)

I'll hold you to that (not grabbing where I shouldn't, I promise).

And it's appreciated, as our colleague here is apparently going through a major crisis of faith. Can we truly call ourselves decent, warm-blooded men if we do not extend a helping hand and a voice of sweet reason?

The important thing is it can be cured, just look at Scrotie - he came back here bitter and jaded as an emperor and look at him now, merrily discussing the upcoming expansion, giddy as a schoolgirl. And it was all thanks to understanding and efforts our amazing community here, may it live long and prosper!