Projectiles can't shotgun?

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raics wrote:

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justinmm1988 wrote:

You seen anything on the CoC gem yet?

Specifically on CoC, no. However, they mentioned revisiting attack speed and base crit on certain weapons, and both of those stats are important for CoC so it will be affected indirectly at least. I don't think it's a huge balance offender currently (no matter how much I dislike it personally), there are other ways to tone it down besides reducing proc chance.

I don't think it needs to be toned down, I would assume it needs to go up with all those changes, but maybe im wrong...

"added stuff to my original post"

Ah, right, I think devs were happy with the power ratio between CoC and regular crit builds, and their global power is closely linked with crit so I don't expect any specific changes.

Anyway, if projectile spells work on self cast they will work just as good for CoC, the only case where that ratio changes is when they increase cast speed and reduce damage (or vice versa), like they did with EK.

EDIT:
Hmm, interesting, I just heard that Anger and Wrath affect spells too in Beta.

Shotgunning spells are interesting but it makes a skill gain way too much dps (for single target / small aoe) from one single support gem.

It becomes hard to balance LMP/GMP for shotgunning and non shotgunning skills. For example Freezing Pulse receive a huge boost in dmg with GMP, therefore devs have to tune either the skill or the support gem to keep FP balanced. Since GMP can also be used by non shotgunning skills, reducing GMP's damage is not a good idea.
This leave the devs no choice but to tune FP's damage.

Now because FP is balanced based on the GMP supported scenario, FP is unbalanced when GMP isn't being used. This is just terrible for skill balancing and force everyone to use FP with GMP/LMP, thus reducing players' choices in support gems. This is obviously not what GGG want to see.

Removing shotgun actually make balancing way easier and players will not be forced to use GMP/LMP. Then we can explore and discover more interesting gem combinations.

Let's start thinking about what we can replace LMP/GMP with and get ready for the awakening.

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raics wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

How are casters going to cover anything if shotgunning is removed?

So, you're saying LMP/GMP allowed you to cover more of the screen because of shotgunning? :)

No, LMP/GMP was usable because it enhanced coverage and single target damage. If you remove shotgunning, it forces two different attacks. One for AOE, one for single target. We don't have sockets for that, let alone links. Most builds can't deal "acceptable" DPS with only a four-link setup.

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justinmm1988 wrote:

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raics wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

How are casters going to cover anything if shotgunning is removed?

So, you're saying LMP/GMP allowed you to cover more of the screen because of shotgunning? :)

I think you're confused at what shotgunning is Natharias, shotgunning is when you stand in a bosses face and hit it with all 5 projectiles at once from 1 use.

With this change that is no more, hitting a single target with all 5 beams in one use is going to now be like hitting it with just 1...only 1 projectile from a single use can hit the same target, not 2, 3, 4, or all 5...or however many you happen to be launching out on a single use ...GMP/LMP will still be good for clearing the screen however because there will be many mobs, not just one target...and each projectile from a single use can hit a single target, it just can't hit a creature with multiple beams...basically 1 projectile per creature per use.

Basically a large nerf to single target while using LMP/GMP, aoe is still ok, not as good but ok.

I've always known what shotgunning is. What gave you the impression that I was mistaken?

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raics wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

How are casters going to cover anything if shotgunning is removed?

So, you're saying LMP/GMP allowed you to cover more of the screen because of shotgunning? :)

No, LMP/GMP was usable because it enhanced coverage and single target damage. If you remove shotgunning, it forces two different attacks. One for AOE, one for single target. We don't have sockets for that, let alone links. Most builds can't deal "acceptable" DPS with only a four-link setup.

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justinmm1988 wrote:

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raics wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

How are casters going to cover anything if shotgunning is removed?

So, you're saying LMP/GMP allowed you to cover more of the screen because of shotgunning? :)

I think you're confused at what shotgunning is Natharias, shotgunning is when you stand in a bosses face and hit it with all 5 projectiles at once from 1 use.

With this change that is no more, hitting a single target with all 5 beams in one use is going to now be like hitting it with just 1...only 1 projectile from a single use can hit the same target, not 2, 3, 4, or all 5...or however many you happen to be launching out on a single use ...GMP/LMP will still be good for clearing the screen however because there will be many mobs, not just one target...and each projectile from a single use can hit a single target, it just can't hit a creature with multiple beams...basically 1 projectile per creature per use.

Basically a large nerf to single target while using LMP/GMP, aoe is still ok, not as good but ok.

I've always known what shotgunning is. What gave you the impression that I was mistaken?

"

raics wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

How are casters going to cover anything if shotgunning is removed?

So, you're saying LMP/GMP allowed you to cover more of the screen because of shotgunning? :)

No, LMP/GMP was usable because it enhanced coverage and single target damage. If you remove shotgunning, it forces two different attacks. One for AOE, one for single target. We don't have sockets for that, let alone links. Most builds can't deal "acceptable" DPS with only a four-link setup.

"

justinmm1988 wrote:

"

raics wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

How are casters going to cover anything if shotgunning is removed?

So, you're saying LMP/GMP allowed you to cover more of the screen because of shotgunning? :)

I think you're confused at what shotgunning is Natharias, shotgunning is when you stand in a bosses face and hit it with all 5 projectiles at once from 1 use.

With this change that is no more, hitting a single target with all 5 beams in one use is going to now be like hitting it with just 1...only 1 projectile from a single use can hit the same target, not 2, 3, 4, or all 5...or however many you happen to be launching out on a single use ...GMP/LMP will still be good for clearing the screen however because there will be many mobs, not just one target...and each projectile from a single use can hit a single target, it just can't hit a creature with multiple beams...basically 1 projectile per creature per use.

Basically a large nerf to single target while using LMP/GMP, aoe is still ok, not as good but ok.

I've always known what shotgunning is. What gave you the impression that I was mistaken?

"

raics wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

How are casters going to cover anything if shotgunning is removed?

So, you're saying LMP/GMP allowed you to cover more of the screen because of shotgunning? :)

No, LMP/GMP was usable because it enhanced coverage and single target damage. If you remove shotgunning, it forces two different attacks. One for AOE, one for single target. We don't have sockets for that, let alone links. Most builds can't deal "acceptable" DPS with only a four-link setup.

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justinmm1988 wrote:

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raics wrote:

"

Natharias wrote:

How are casters going to cover anything if shotgunning is removed?

So, you're saying LMP/GMP allowed you to cover more of the screen because of shotgunning? :)

I think you're confused at what shotgunning is Natharias, shotgunning is when you stand in a bosses face and hit it with all 5 projectiles at once from 1 use.

With this change that is no more, hitting a single target with all 5 beams in one use is going to now be like hitting it with just 1...only 1 projectile from a single use can hit the same target, not 2, 3, 4, or all 5...or however many you happen to be launching out on a single use ...GMP/LMP will still be good for clearing the screen however because there will be many mobs, not just one target...and each projectile from a single use can hit a single target, it just can't hit a creature with multiple beams...basically 1 projectile per creature per use.

Basically a large nerf to single target while using LMP/GMP, aoe is still ok, not as good but ok.

I've always known what shotgunning is. What gave you the impression that I was mistaken?

"

raics wrote:

Also, you probably haven't seen new LMP/GMP gems in beta? Their damage penalty now gets reduced on level, I think LMP starts at 25% less and it gets reduced by 1% for every two levels or something, probably ending at 15% less at level 20. Still think nobody will use it?

I took a glance on Ziggy's stream and it looks like his Freeze Pulse is indeed wider and does more damage than it used to. So there's nothing to worry about, every spell affected will apparently be compensated in some way besides the LMP/GMP boost.

So yeah, effectively, close range DPS will be lower, medium range will be about the same and long range DPS will actually be higher.

It's not all DPS though. Unless Cybil's LGOSH gets a huge buff, I don't think spells will be viable for me.

I'll have to just hope I get a good unique to drop without farming Dominus.

Sorry, I just assumed cause you stated "won't be able to clear the screen" ...cause that will be possible dmg wise, we are being hit HARD in single target, not aoe.

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justinmm1988 wrote:

Sorry, I just assumed cause you stated "won't be able to clear the screen" ...cause that will be possible dmg wise, we are being hit HARD in single target, not aoe.

Which means you either need to swap LMP/GMP with something else, have a second attack/cast setup, or just deal with single target stuff.

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No, LMP/GMP was usable because it enhanced coverage and single target damage. If you remove shotgunning, it forces two different attacks. One for AOE, one for single target. We don't have sockets for that, let alone links. Most builds can't deal "acceptable" DPS with only a four-link setup.

That is exactly the reason why Lesser Multiple Projectiles/Greater Multiple Projectiles are getting their shotgun rule changed. It makes you do more damage single target and multitarget. There is no choice between this and any other gems.

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Natharias wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

u cna still multiproj it, you just wont gain a damage buff from doing so, only an aoe buff and a life sustain buff.


I know u were worried about this mate, but i feel like they will be buffing its damage to make it still very viable, i wouldnt worry too much until you see the new values. If the values suck balls then theres always time to make the calls on the forums, be heard, hopefully make sure what goes through to the final product is a working, viable version of incinerate.

I'm not so worried about the damage on Incinerate. I'm worried mostly on the lgoh for it. My best character relies on the 800-900 some life per second from it. It's really the only thing he relies on. Take that out, and he becomes quite fragile.

GGG needs to stop nerfing things to the ground. Nerfing is not balancing.

Again, understand that I understand these notes are just notes, not finalized changes.

Contrary to popular belief, "nerfing" is indeed a way of balancing.

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Natharias wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

u cna still multiproj it, you just wont gain a damage buff from doing so, only an aoe buff and a life sustain buff.


I know u were worried about this mate, but i feel like they will be buffing its damage to make it still very viable, i wouldnt worry too much until you see the new values. If the values suck balls then theres always time to make the calls on the forums, be heard, hopefully make sure what goes through to the final product is a working, viable version of incinerate.

I'm not so worried about the damage on Incinerate. I'm worried mostly on the lgoh for it. My best character relies on the 800-900 some life per second from it. It's really the only thing he relies on. Take that out, and he becomes quite fragile.

GGG needs to stop nerfing things to the ground. Nerfing is not balancing.

Again, understand that I understand these notes are just notes, not finalized changes.

Contrary to popular belief, "nerfing" is indeed a way of balancing.

Yes nerfing is a method to balance, but it must be done in conjunction with buffing.

If all you do is nerf what players have, monsters will become overpowered. What do you do then, nerf monsters? Why not buff what players have, instead?

There was absolutely no reason for GGG to nerf block. They had already added in block penetration, both in passives and support, and there are damage types that ignore block entirely.

Yet low-life is still standing as one of the most broken mechanics in this game. Free auras, chaos immunity (due to sheer hit points), Blood Rage's immense attack speed and leech, Pain Attunement...

What the fuck did block have on any of that? Nothing. Minion Instability, ground effects, Detonate Dead, and other things bypassed your block all the time. And not just block, but dodge and evasion as well.

It's not just nerfing, GGG is nerfing the wrong things.

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Natharias wrote:

Yes nerfing is a method to balance, but it must be done in conjunction with buffing.

It's not just nerfing, GGG is nerfing the wrong things.

No, certain game elements may become more powerful than intended through introduction of other elements over time, that's what happened to a number of mechanics in the game, including block. Back when it was just shields and passives with very few ways to get spell block it was fine, but now that we got uniques with block chance, block flasks and whatnot it became way too easy to cap block both permanently and temporarily. Actually, capped spell block was the bigger culprit of the two.

And there's no reason to buff anything because of block removal because the game wasn't balanced for maxed block and spell block, the nerf didn't leave a gap to fill. However, they will buff projectiles spells because they were balanced with shotgunning in mind and for the most part weren't the reason for the removal so it left a huge gap, see the difference now?