So played PoE for a while then played d3... My reaction...

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FadeXF wrote:

Do I ACTUALLY think that the majority of the players ignore the skill tree and just throw a specific set of gems and equipment together and effectively just bypass the 1>map? No. HOWEVER with a major HOWEVER emphasis here... streamers, and anyone taking the game seriously use very specific gems that have absolutely nothing to do with their actual builds and level through all the content that way... and only at level 70 or so do they switch over to their "real build" - this point I don't think anyone can really dispute.

Why does that matter? Well - that makes POE very comparable to D3 leveling experience - only in POE that leveling experience is extremely long winded. I don't know because I haven't leveled a toon in POE in the last 8 months, what is the leveling curve now 1>70? D3 is 5>12 hours solo if you are "racing" to it. I don't want to throw numbers out there for POE 1>mapping. I don't think it's 10 hours though.

Yeah those who want to rush through to maps as fast as possible will use the best builds to achieve that goal. My point is that many people choose to be altoholics in PoE because leveling experience is diverse and fun. Not sure if it's the same in D3, are people there altoholics too?

I know people who play different builds in D3, but I don't think altoholic can be used to describe them. It's not that they have alt characters. They just have alt gear in the stash and switch to an alt build when they feel like it. The small number of character slots kind of make it impossible to have numerous different character builds the same way PoE does.

About flameblast and searing bond, that means the game is poorly balanced at low levels, not that build diversity is an illusion. Honestly it's something GGG should improve.

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FadeXF wrote:

I don't even really care too much - but if I was a stickler to the "build diversity" debate, I would also point out how extremely difficult it is to change your character around - it's pretty well set in stone at level 80. No movement at all if you decide you want to change. You have to invest A LOT of currency. This isn't very diverse. You are forced to remake a new character or pay a heavy heavy heavy price for it.

No, the right term is gated. The diversity is fine.

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I don't find a lot of the arguments you made in this thread solid. They tend to be limited in level range, require impractical conditions or straight up confuse concepts like other have shown. Anyway, not biggie, D3 has its things, build diversity is not one of them, :)

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FadeXF wrote:

I don't even really care too much - but if I was a stickler to the "build diversity" debate, I would also point out how extremely difficult it is to change your character around - it's pretty well set in stone at level 80. No movement at all if you decide you want to change. You have to invest A LOT of currency. This isn't very diverse. You are forced to remake a new character or pay a heavy heavy heavy price for it.

I get what you're trying to say now, although I wouldn't use the words build diversity the same way. You kind of say PoE has limited build diversity because it's hard to change your build. You're defining diversity as it applies to already completed characters. I'd use the word flexibility instead of diversity for what you're talking about.

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FadeXF wrote:

Now - you are also using the term "build" where I think that POE the "build" is like "Hey, I want to make this tornado shooter who uses traps and 3 auras" - I think that POE has a problem big time because when you are playing your "tornado, trapper, aura" you may turn on auras at level 31, but the rest of the time you are leveling using completely unrelated - like COMPLETELY unrelated items. Prime example is like searing bond, or flameblast. I'd like a little honesty Xav. Am I wrong here?

You're right if you're talking about streamers or the people I described in my last post, those who see maps as the beginning of the game. You're wrong if you're talking about altoholics or people like me who chose a build and stick to it from beginning to end (TS being a level 24 gem means I'll use a different skill til 24 but I will still be using a bow from level 1). The fun about leveling in PoE is about how you start with a rudimentary shit build and slowly work your way up and become stronger and your build gets well rounded as you add more damage more crit more auras more support gems. Once the build is 'good' many people quit the character and start a new one.

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FadeXF wrote:

POE sort of keeps you away from your end builds, and also human nature kicks in when you can level like HOLY SHIT fast using poison arrow for 50 levels, you will.

I wouldn't call that human nature, it just depends on what's fun to you. I (and many others) like leveling with sub-optimal speed if this means we can use diverse builds and see our character slowly grow to become a god. To me it's very boring to level another lameblaster until 60+ and then to switch to my 'real' build. That's what someone does who's actively competing on the ladder and min-maxing the shit out of the game. I'm just playing for fun.

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FadeXF wrote:

I don't even really care too much - but if I was a stickler to the "build diversity" debate, I would also point out how extremely difficult it is to change your character around - it's pretty well set in stone at level 80. No movement at all if you decide you want to change. You have to invest A LOT of currency. This isn't very diverse. You are forced to remake a new character or pay a heavy heavy heavy price for it.

Build diversity doesn't really have anything to do with how easy it is to switch builds around. And no movement at all isn't true, you can easily change from a fire spell to a cold spell with a couple of regret orbs, or from one bow skill to another and so on.

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FadeXF wrote:

lol - ok whatever you say.

I like how even though I prove some valid points it's sort of just wiped away in 1 nice clean "oh, it's just something GGG needs to improve on" - hahahahahaha - no way at all to do with the fact that I've already proven that the skill tree is pretty much meaningless, and that people opt to use leveling gems that have absolutely nothing to do with their skill tree? But this has absolutely nothing at all to do with builds... it's just a very minor glitch, no bigs. hahahaha...

Anyways. Carry on witcha bad self and enjoy your day. Thanks for the laugh I mean that. <up>

<Edited by support> You didn't prove that the skill tree is meaningless, not even close. All you proved is that some builds are more efficient for leveling than others.

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FadeXF wrote:

I find it hard to explain because POE has multiple systems here - the gem system - the skill tree - equipment. Because you can just ignore the skill tree system, and rely on gem and gear. What do you even define as a build?

For me it's defined like "I want my guy to be a bow wielding trap thrower who uses auras" or "a summoner who specializes in totems and auras" or "a melee build using double strike with tons of AR/MR/life regen" - and here inlies the issue for me, I guess.

In D3 for example I actually want to build my barb in to whirlwind, cota, wotb, rend, who has nice self buffs. But you can build a fast moving double rending barb for example - or a barb who specializes in uber tanky group helper -

Here's a build list site just for Barbs:

Spoiler

http://www.diablofans.com/builds?filter-has-spell-2=-1&filter-build-tag=1&filter-class=2

When you get some pieces of gear, for example a pair of boots that allows you to use a barb ability "stomp" twice instead of 1 time, then you can combine that with a set of gear that whenever you stomp, you create an avelanche or earthquake around you - you may opt to play that for awhile... you aren't limited at all in the type of characters you can play, and D3 releases brand new uniques every season - those uniques actually create further build diversity. Every 3-4 months now.

D3 may have more limited possibilities for builds than POE. What it doesn't have is "absolutely zero build diversity" - that is just a complete bold faced lie. I'm not here saying D3 has more builds. It doesn't.

Build: a combination of gems, passives and gear made for an specific purpose. You can discount things that are mildly different but do the same things (for example, if the gear is swapped but the important uniques are still the same, you change some supports or utility skills that have no big relevance to the function of the build, etc.). Yes, it's fuzzy, but so fractals and textures in fucking maths/computer science.

So you ignored passive skills for a specific build. That doesn't really prove anything. It's just a bidimensional build (given my definition). You can still swap some items or gems in that configuration.

Also, "absolutely zero build diversity" is a strawman. Almost no one is trying to say that in this thread. Not me.

For Diablo like games, the right thing to ask is how far from zero goes. That's absolutely not favorable for Diablo 3. The gear dimension is constrained by sets, so by design the build diversity is constrained. Any build diversity comes from not fixed gear. Skill choice is irrelevant, you switch when leveling in function of gear. Try to use the skills you want without the needed gear, in a bind on account environment. Someone will get screwed.

Given that D3 has limited build diversity and it's gear dependent, almost 100%, seasonal uniques are a bad idea that will make a lot of people complain (source: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/16952155685). Like it happened with Scold's. Honestly, the whole idea of uniques behind a league or season could have some revision.

And lastly, people complain that those sets are just too overpowered and make the rest of the items shit. Not good.

So many of you speaking on D3's mechanics clearly haven't played it in years, if at all.

Looks like we got Eben'd :x

Saying D3 has zero build diversity is like saying PoE doesn't have desync or the Pope isn't Catholic. No need to debate starting from such a ludicrous (;)) point.

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FadeXF wrote:

As far as the builds go: yeah, I think we see eye to eye mostly on how that goes. When I was saying what I said about POE skill tree I was and am obviously being defensive and I was being equally extreme in position than those who are being dense in saying "well, D3 has zero build diversity" - and I appreciate that you weren't the audience that was directed at. It does pinpoint some issues with POE though, and a gripe I've had with the game is that I WANT to start the game as an arrow shooting, trap throwing, aura weilding bad ass... but every time I make a new character I find that I never am provided the gems (skills) to effectively trace that pathway - AND - that if I just take on a different gem it's 100% more effective to do so. There's no real reward - and a lot of lost time overall - for people who spec arrow damage in their skill tree, and oh... I dunno... actually use fucking arrows to kill mobs? heh

Again, the problem is imbalance at low levels. At least it's not intentional. If you want to complain about it, go ahead, but's it's not about an intrinsic illusion of choice for all the systems in the game. At least GGG is not restraining people to use specific things on purpose. That's more questionable.

Important thing is how far from zero build diversity can go, and in that aspect Blizzard gimped Diablo 3 from the get go, on purpose.