Stop making sellable challenges

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Grughal wrote:

Personally I think it's the players' fault. If no one bought these things, no one would naturally sell them. You can't blame streamers or higher level players taking easy currency when they can (and often even providing a good service for it) nor can you blame GGG for designing these challenges. Same goes with the RMT issues online games are having.

Gamers in general need to man up and start treating games (once again) as fun ways to challenge themselves instead of as another layer of achievements.

I don't think anyone is blaming people for selling kills.

But I disagree with you that you can't blame GGG for the design.

As for the buyers? Well, target audience is target audience. Pretentious/wannabe hardcore gamers.

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Grughal wrote:

Gamers in general need to man up and start treating games (once again) as fun ways to challenge themselves instead of as another layer of achievements.

+1. but its too late, alas.

this generation of gamers is absolutely achievement and 'reward' obsessed; if you dont get achievement or 'reward', they consider playing a game 'wasted time'.

it becomes absurd really, some people actually play games to get achievements instead of having fun.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

But I disagree with you that you can't blame GGG for the design.

Fair enough. But if they wanted to make a challenge that can't be sold, they would somehow have to change the game mechanics for it. I think it would be at least equally as "bad" as sellable challenges are.

At least now players have a choice to play for it or be a chicken and buy it. Up to the player.

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grepman wrote:

+1. but its too late, alas.

this generation of gamers is absolutely achievement and 'reward' obsessed; if you dont get achievement or 'reward', they consider playing a game 'wasted time'.

it becomes absurd really, some people actually play games to get achievements instead of having fun.

So true. There's a thread on this very same subforum from a 8/8 player giving negative "feedback" how he died at 79 (before reaching 80 for achievement). He probably had a really good time while playing (but if he didn't why the fuck does he even play?) but because he didn't get his red helmet, all that time was "wasted" and now he's pissed off and hating the game. So fucking absurd, hilariously funny and sad at the same time.

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Chundadragon wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

LOL, can I borrow that tin foil hat your wearing? No seriously these challenges weren't designed to put wealth in streamers hands, they don't need help with that as players practically do that already for them.

Please.. tell me that streamers being able to put Zana mods on every map, instantly sustain 77+ and faceroll 50 ex in no time is good for a competitive race.

Not even a single donation was required to achieve that.

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goetzjam wrote:

These challenges weren't designed with skill in mind, they were designed to give the community the ability to get armor sets.

Can I borrow your GGG insider source? The challenges were designed for giving away armor sets, okay mate....

They can put zana mods on every map because they very well know how to make money, you ever wonder why its always the same people on the top of the ladder?

While the top might be saturated with streamers, there are some non streamers up there as well. You of course just don't see them.

You are right, donations not required when you understand how to gain wealth.

As for the insider source it was posted on here or reddit that they wanted the challenges to be possible for everyone, it literally was created to keep people distracted away from Act 4 until they are ready to talk about it, whats more distracting then free mtx?

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morbo wrote:

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CanHasPants wrote:

If you cannot kill cruel Dominus, how can you afford a "top tier" boss kill?

Getting 5c / 10fus is hard? In this trading-flipping game? Lol no.

Otoh, reaching endgame bosses like Shrine Piety or Palace Dom is hard and requires all those "hardcorey" things GGG was talking about in some post: knowledge, time investment, effort, passion, balanced build, blah blah...

E:
Also, low prices are a sign of big supply/demand. The price is exactly right, as determined by the market.

For what it's worth at this point, I completely misread your initial reply (I blame the process of learning all about my newfound fatherhood--namely that thing called sleep, which I can almost remember what it was like)

My point wasn't that it is hard to pay those costs, but that If there was a problem, it's that people undervalue the services provided when selling high level, difficult kills. And that if you can afford those costs, whatever they are, you can afford the gear to defeat cruel Dominus.

But that wasn't your point, and I was just picking at a lesser detail.

while these complaints are certainly valid, its on the player who is putting their level 35 in the atziri zone to get the kill that they never actually completed the challenge.

Not to mention that i was under the impression that the challenges for these one month races were more or less made to reward the players who stuck around in the slump time before the release of act 4. I mean the entire reason that the 1 month leagues exist is because of this, there's a reason these challenges were so easy to complete compared to the ones in the 4 month leagues.

Also because the 1 month leagues were put together at the last minute because act 4 wasn't ready, you have to think that maybe GGG didn't put much thought into how the challenges worked because they have other things to deal with. Its just a thought.

Those things aside, i think you are completely correct in your opinion, streamers do have it easier and this environment does make it easier for people to scam each other. I hope that in the future the challenges are not sell-able at all so that the person will have to earn it rather then buy it.

In re: streamers: The problem, if you want to call it that, is a simple matter of exposure and popularity. A streamer will accomplish anything you can, with far less (in game) effort than it would take you, solely because they have much more community support than the average Joe. I specify in game effort because, while I don't tend to watch streamers, I suspect they invest a considerable amount of effort outside of the game (or outside of the scope of simply playing the game) to sustain their exposure. I don't think that effort is likely to be entirely disproportionate to the rewards, either, because they are leveraging qualities beyond just time dedicated--personality, entertainment, organization, etc.--and everything is worth something.

The largest problem, which is actually a problem, is this idea of "there's us and there's them." That "we are just poor average players who actually work for our rewards, while they always get all the nice toys." That, imo, is wrong.

@morbo: (was called away to other things) about the point you were actually making.. I'd have to think about it more and get back to you. Likely I think it won't matter much anyways, because you're relying on (what I think may be) a false premise--that PoE was ever a hardcore game that looks down on hand holding and hand outs. There is a very deeply hardcore solo game buried deep inside this beast (see also: Endless Ledge), but that is compromised the moment you open the trade window for the very first time. That moment is when the game forgets it ever asked you any of those genuinely hardcore questions.

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goetzjam wrote:

They can put zana mods on every map because they very well know how to make money, you ever wonder why its always the same people on the top of the ladder?

No give me a fucking break.

I can make currency better than almost all streamers (1000s ex in Ambush), even I can't make 2 ex per Shrine map.

Meanwhile my friend who is also always on the top of the ladder (top 15 this race until death in Palace, and #3 in Beyond for ages) who doesn't stream couldn't get customers for Shrine kills and ripped his 77+ map pool since no faceroll Zana mods.

You really think it's normal to play Zana mods on every map on day 4? Jesus fucking Christ...

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Chundadragon wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

They can put zana mods on every map because they very well know how to make money, you ever wonder why its always the same people on the top of the ladder?

No give me a fucking break.

I can make currency better than almost all streamers (1000s ex in Ambush), even I can't make 2 ex per Shrine map.

Meanwhile my friend who is also always on the top of the ladder (top 15 this race until death in Palace, and #3 in Beyond for ages) who doesn't stream couldn't get customers for Shrine kills and ripped his 77+ map pool since no faceroll Zana mods.

You really think it's normal to play Zana mods on every map on day 4? Jesus fucking Christ...

You are bitching literally about the .00001%

Nothing to change, people have been able to do things you deem "unfair" for the longest amount of time. They can make money better then you, with or without this challenge streamers can put zana on every single map because people want to buy from them, even overpay.

Your friend is an example of why its perfectly fine, sure he can't get people to pay for the challenge, but why would someone trust a random person vs a streamer?

1000s of ex in ambush while is amazing is nothing as I suspect you made most of that because of the atziri uber items challenge?

You bitch about sellable challenges, but thats literally the whole reason why made 1000's of ex in ambush, how fucking ironic.

I guess its only not ok for people to sell challenges if its one you can't do.

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goetzjam wrote:

You bitch about sellable challenges, but thats literally the whole reason why made 1000's of ex in ambush, how fucking ironic.

I guess its only not ok for people to sell challenges if its one you can't do.

Thanks for bringing that up.

Don't even think about calling Ambush fair. You really think that I think that Ambush was fair? When the entire fucking league was a pyramid scheme to put thousands of exalts into Uber Atziri farmer's hands?

I did what I had to to get 8/8 challenges complete - there is literally zero way to sustain Uber Atziri at 30 ex per Hope without selling gloves. (Took me 93 kills for Axe, you feel like giving me 3000 exalts?) Streamers on the hand are liberally creaming the fact that they can sell kills. Currency is literally being handed to them giving them an unfair edge in a competitive race.

We can argue this from so many points of view - from it destroying the "hardcore" nature of PoE, to polarising wealth to streamers, there is zero sense of balance to these challenges. End all the sellable challenges.

As an aside, to even start Uber Atziri I needed a few hundred ex (I can make currency very well without Atziri)

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goetzjam wrote:

Your friend is an example of why its perfectly fine

Yes very good. So player skill is irrelevant in a PoE competitive race? You need to stream and make currency of SC players coming onto HC for the MTX?

That sounds good to me. Keep it coming.