Stop making sellable challenges

Challenges are bad because streamers benefit from their audiences.

Ladders are not competitive because challenges are bad.

Okay. Keep arguing yourself into a hole.

"

CanHasPants wrote:

Challenges are bad because streamers benefit from their audiences.

Ladders are not competitive because challenges are bad.

Okay. Keep arguing yourself into a hole.

Thanks for nailing one aspect of this argument. That's not all, just what goetz seems to have picked up on.

Anuhart has a very good argument on the other side of it on the previous page.

So let me get this right.

Your only pissed because streamers have the ability to sell the 77 map boss kill, but you and your friends don't because who would trust random people that don't stream?

You've taken advantage of past challenges sales, maybe not directly selling the kills for the MTX, but selling items for a challenge.

You have the audacity to complain about people selling challenges when you yourself have done it in the past?

This is NOT an issue.

Almost every single one of the challenges ever created can be sold, why because people are willing to pay for it.

Find the ghost? Very similar to exiles in the past.

Unique items, this one will always be purchasable.
Use currency items, well dur.
Do these master quest, well that one is sellable.
Full clear, I've seen people part up and sell each zone.
Kill map bosses, well most map bosses are excluded or in a specific area so those are easy to sell.


Whats an example of a past challenge that can't be purchased?

Level to XX (80-90) I mean this one you can at least purchase an advantage or an easier way, untainted, buy a higher map pool, whatever you'd like.


The whole thing about PoE is that it has an economy, as such anything that people want is worth value, doesn't have to be concrete.


Are you denying that GGG intended for this challenge to be easy?

"

goetzjam wrote:

So let me get this right.

Your only pissed because streamers have the ability to sell the 77 map boss kill, but you and your friends don't because who would trust random people that don't stream?

Lmao please.

You seem to have gravitated to that from the last page for some reason which is definitely one of the issues I have labelled (polarising wealth) - I actually only brought it up since you made a bullshit statement about streamers obviously being more skilled when that is clearly not true and skill has no place in this. Then you derailed with some shit Ambush comparison which is not even close.

I personally have never sold challenges. As I said very clearly, what I did (selling item drops) was mandatory to get 8/8.

Again, this type of challenge is very bad for the game in general (pseudo-skill allowing level 35 to buy their "accomplishment") even aside from the blatant lack of map progression in this race.

Even that alone - first we had cartos, now Zana spawns, now Zana Ambush maps on every map from day 4. It's a complete destruction of any of the "hardcore mapping" design where risk/reward had to be assessed and endgame meant tough grit/play.

I mean, what good is a rolling/mod system when all you need to do now is force Cartographer's boxes through the Ambush mod and faceroll your way through practically blue 78s to 100?

"

Chundadragon wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

So let me get this right.

Your only pissed because streamers have the ability to sell the 77 map boss kill, but you and your friends don't because who would trust random people that don't stream?

Lmao please.

You seem to have gravitated to that from the last page for some reason which is definitely one of the issues I have labelled (polarising wealth) - I actually only brought it up since you made a bullshit statement about streamers obviously being more skilled when that is clearly not true and skill has no place in this. Then you derailed with some shit Ambush comparison which is not even close.

I personally have never sold challenges. As I said very clearly, what I did (selling item drops) was mandatory to get 8/8.

Again, this type of challenge is very bad for the game in general (pseudo-skill allowing level 35 to buy their "accomplishment") even aside from the blatant lack of map progression in this race.

Even that alone - first we had cartos, now Zana spawns, now Zana Ambush maps on every map from day 4. It's a complete destruction of any of the "hardcore mapping" design where risk/reward had to be assessed and endgame meant tough grit/play.

I mean, what good is a rolling/mod system when all you need to do now is force Cartographer's boxes through the Ambush mod and faceroll your way through practically blue 78s to 100?

Are you meaning to tell me the only way you can do zana map mod on every 78 is to sell 77 boss kills for the challenge? If so just state that, so we can point out how wrong that is.

While you two nitpick over the minutae, I'll repeat: you're missing your own point.

You are finding what may be genuine issues, but are, at best, weak correlations to challenges. At the basest level, you have an argument but it has nothing to do with this topic.

I've yet to read a single good reason why challenges are bad for the game.

"

CanHasPants wrote:

I've yet to read a single good reason why challenges are bad for the game.

Obviously its bad for the game because streamers can sell them and get an advantage on the "competitive" ladder.

Well, since you brought it up ;) Anybody can sell them to gain an advantage; streamers will always have a greater advantage due to exposure. The latter hs nothing to do with challenges.

I ll tell you Imo why this is "bad".

-In the case of this one month race, the dev created this to keep people playing the game instead of playing something else. It is vital for GGG to keep players in the game between leagues.

When a level 35 can buy his way in one of the challenge, he reduced considerably his time in the game. I suspect such people will stop playing once they get the full set.

SO half the players will make this 1 month league a 4 days league and POE might look like a dead zone again, which is what GGG wanted to avoid until 1.4.



-In the case of competitive gaming, GGG sometime selling this game as almost a E-sport. When you sell your product this way, you want to be sure it is true.

Poe ladder race is actually like the tour de France, most of the top 10 are cheating/exploiting their way to their 15 minutes of fame.

If you can cheat/ exploit your way to the top, there is no e-sport or no competition anymore and you have fake champions like lance Armstrong representing your game.

Do you want POE to be Linked as a game you can "cheat/exploit" to win?

Streaming is an unfair advantage but you can t do anything about it, however designing the challenges to be solo is the only way to create a fair competitive ground where everyone can win and loose.

The legitimacy of poe to be called a hardcore game and competitive game is for now 0 because of how the trade system is implanted in the ladder race, because of how rich players are dominating pvp and how rmt cheaters where buying their ticket to level 100 in many of the previews leagues.

If GGG want this game to be e-sport, to be called competitive with races and ladder, they need at least to find a way to avoid payable challenges .


However Poe is just a game in the end so,

if we agree this game is just a regular casual game with no ambition, then it s all cool and this discussion have no reason to exist.

ps: I actually thks ggg for this 1 month challenge because they provided almost free mtx to players. I finished the HC one in 1 week (no buying my way) and I am very happy about the red power ranger suit.

I pity those who buy their way because imo those challenge are so easy it is shameful to pay to get them.

"

CanHasPants wrote:

Questions

This barely passable affix, or these barely passable sockets? Or maybe replace this ring to fulfil the attribute requirement of this other item that has a little of both? Maybe I should try to roll the sockets on this first item, or will I have greater need of these orbs later? How do I piecemail my gear together with so few resources?

You nailed it. That's exactly what makes the game fun, difficult & challenging, aka "hardcore". The struggle to "patch" your hero with the (mostly garbage) stuff you loot. The great satisfaction you get from progressing over known difficulty spikes (especially in HC).

That's why I love re-rolling in temp. leagues. Starting from zero. Working with limited resources, making hard decisions, that sometimes screw you, sometimes pay off greatly. Struggling in the unforgiving world of Wraeclast. That's the baseline hardcore game.



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About selling "challenges" (they really should find another word for it):

I know that the game is designed to be traded and skipped. Most of these "challenges" are thus RNG gated and boring as hell, to make people come together. They don't depend on your ability to build a proper char or skill, just on luck.

That's why playing in the 1-months, I'm sharing all my encounters in 820. RNG gating in not a challenge and seeing all those happy people, when you share your 'embezzler', 'seditionist', 'mutated ursa', 'vagan with a staff'... is fun. Like doing charity in a way :)

(ofc, a smart PoE player would instead earn a buck out of these. That's why I have a lvl 84 char and still no 5-link :/)