Elemental Proliferation is fine.

You know what I haven't seen on these forums recently? A list of shit skills that need BUFFS.

I'm less concerned with the existence of strong builds and more concerned with increasing build variety. Yes, there will always be players who crowd around popular builds and refuse to play any other way except around exploits. But the other approach GGG seems to be taking to resolve this problem besides nerfs is releasing new content - get those players obsessed with the newest gem instead of the old trendy thing.

Sometimes this can work. But, mostly, I'm worried about the old gems winding up objectively worse than the new ones and being completely forgotten. This seems to counteract what I understood to be one of the main design decisions behind the game: choice!

Anyway, let's make new buff threads instead of nerf threads. I'm too lazy to do it, so someone get on that :)

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demon9675 wrote:

You know what I haven't seen on these forums recently? A list of shit skills that need BUFFS.

I'm less concerned with the existence of strong builds and more concerned with increasing build variety. Yes, there will always be players who crowd around popular builds and refuse to play any other way except around exploits. But the other approach GGG seems to be taking to resolve this problem besides nerfs is releasing new content - get those players obsessed with the newest gem instead of the old trendy thing.

Sometimes this can work. But, mostly, I'm worried about the old gems winding up objectively worse than the new ones and being completely forgotten. This seems to counteract what I understood to be one of the main design decisions behind the game: choice!

Anyway, let's make new buff threads instead of nerf threads. I'm too lazy to do it, so someone get on that :)

well that is an interesting point with an interesting answer. the answer is power creep. it is easy to say oh lets buff all the shit ( there is alot of shit btw)

but then we simply get to a point where the game is just too easy for everything. and right now the game is too easy when playing with an over powered mechanic.

however human psychology tells us people remember the negative and focus on the negative over the positive.

there have been buff threads but they lose steam quickly

prolif itself is fine, if you don't spec around it, the "problem" is that with some combinations burn damage can be increased significantly but it's not free and it's prety much required.

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demon9675 wrote:

You know what I haven't seen on these forums recently? A list of shit skills that need BUFFS.)

You didn't look hard. Shit, at the time I'm posting this it's 3 threads below.

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lagwin1980 wrote:

prolif itself is fine, if you don't spec around it, the "problem" is that with some combinations burn damage can be increased significantly but it's not free and it's prety much required.

Prolif is the melee splash or LMP of burn. Yet doesn't have the damage reduction, works off dead bodies, damage can be set off the lowest res monster, AOE is nuts and everything else mentioned in this thread.

The complaints with flameblast was you get a +1 or +2 specter, use chance to ignite and prolif until late game. I'm leveling an EA build atm to see how different it is from MA power level, so far CtI + prolif and 1-2 arrows will carry me through just about anything. Best part is the AOE from the explosion might skill most of the pack but prolif will kill even rares in seconds if they try to approach me.

It's way stronger than anything comparable.

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Moosifer wrote:

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demon9675 wrote:

You know what I haven't seen on these forums recently? A list of shit skills that need BUFFS.)

You didn't look hard. Shit, at the time I'm posting this it's 3 threads below.

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lagwin1980 wrote:

prolif itself is fine, if you don't spec around it, the "problem" is that with some combinations burn damage can be increased significantly but it's not free and it's prety much required.

Prolif is the melee splash or LMP of burn. Yet doesn't have the damage reduction, works off dead bodies, damage can be set off the lowest res monster, AOE is nuts and everything else mentioned in this thread.

The complaints with flameblast was you get a +1 or +2 specter, use chance to ignite and prolif until late game. I'm leveling an EA build atm to see how different it is from MA power level, so far CtI + prolif and 1-2 arrows will carry me through just about anything. Best part is the AOE from the explosion might skill most of the pack but prolif will kill even rares in seconds if they try to approach me.

It's way stronger than anything comparable.

You're right, I didn't look hard! Those threads get less attention though, probably because folks love to bitch about nerfs.

In any case, we should at least be thinking about these conversations in tandem with each other. Skills need to be tweaked, rather than hit with the nerf hammer or power creep buffed so that the entire game balance has to change. THAT, rather than a constant cycle of nerfs, is closer to what I'd call "balance."

Again, a lot of this has to do with new vs. old skills, too. I'm glad GGG likes to release new content/gems, but recently it's seemed like new gems always steamroll over what folks used to use. Yes, this is partially because ppl like to check out the new skills, and yes, this is also partially because GGG didn't foresee exploits (like with Mirror Arrow); however, at least some of this problem is because, whether consciously or not, GGG seems to be trying to outflash and outexplode the current game with each new infusion of content. We don't always need new crazy AoE blow-up-the-whole-screen gems. I'm crossing my fingers for something more creative (maybe warcries will fit into this category).

Because someone calls for nerfs doesn't mean at the same time we'll protest buffs. This is a thread about a specific gem. I'm all for and would love buffs, but when OP things exist they can be so overwhelming that they don't leave room for new things to really grab hold. It means either nerfing what's too powerful or buffing everything which just results in an out of control power creep.

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Moosifer wrote:

Because someone calls for nerfs doesn't mean at the same time we'll protest buffs. This is a thread about a specific gem. I'm all for and would love buffs, but when OP things exist they can be so overwhelming that they don't leave room for new things to really grab hold. It means either nerfing what's too powerful or buffing everything which just results in an out of control power creep.

Prolif has been heavily favored by fire (burn) builds for a while. TBH this gem used to be more balanced when shock stacks existed and cold CC builds were used more. Then it was a tradeoff on what exactly you wanted to use it with, now fire almost always provides the better synergy.

Part of the problem with nerfing or changing prolif is then fire becomes the worst out of all 3.

Fire = dot, dot only really useful if you can apply to multiple mobs at once.

Lightning = shock and high damage range\spikes, used to be better but even with arc its pretty nice.

Cold = chill\freeze, some previous exploits allowed for perma freeze, im sure some still are around, but can't keep bosses reliably done (without great investment)

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goetzjam wrote:

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Moosifer wrote:

Because someone calls for nerfs doesn't mean at the same time we'll protest buffs. This is a thread about a specific gem. I'm all for and would love buffs, but when OP things exist they can be so overwhelming that they don't leave room for new things to really grab hold. It means either nerfing what's too powerful or buffing everything which just results in an out of control power creep.

Prolif has been heavily favored by fire (burn) builds for a while. TBH this gem used to be more balanced when shock stacks existed and cold CC builds were used more. Then it was a tradeoff on what exactly you wanted to use it with, now fire almost always provides the better synergy.

Part of the problem with nerfing or changing prolif is then fire becomes the worst out of all 3.

Fire = dot, dot only really useful if you can apply to multiple mobs at once.

Lightning = shock and high damage range\spikes, used to be better but even with arc its pretty nice.

Cold = chill\freeze, some previous exploits allowed for perma freeze, im sure some still are around, but can't keep bosses reliably done (without great investment)

This is the problem I see too. If they were to tone down prolif (other than the exploitive parts, like prolif'ing off corpses), then they would have to up base damage across most other gems to compensate--especially cold since it tends to have low base damage to begin with and freeze is the main thing that holds it together. Otherwise, you just end up neutering the gem for no reason when it's intended purpose is to spread status effects.

I strongly believe the appropriate course with Prolif is numerical reduction. I believe the core of meaningful choice here should be "do I burn less things for more damage, or more things for less damage?" Right now it is "more things, more damage," hence the problem.

I would prefer that Prolif contribute working off corpses. I feel it's an interesting and unique mechanic, and more importantly it is a "more things" mechanic, which is the type of thing Prolif actually deserves. Removing it would change "many more things, same damage" to "slightly more things, same damage." Which fixes little to nothing.

Plus, I like Pyre's drawback.

I feel a straight numerical nerf is far more appropriate.

Regarding the higher burns on less resistant targets spreading to higher resistance targets, I admit it is a problem. Unfortunately, I can't think of any method of fixing it which doesn't simultaneously stop corpse proliferation (without being complicated to a ridiculous extent), and thus for that reason - and that reason only - I might be okay with stopping the corpse proliferation. It would be a sacrifice, but something about making omelettes.

Example: ignite flag is determined before dealing damage. If Prolif, then targets within radius are dealt "status-only" damage (similar to Freeze Mine), while main target takes real damage. After that instant, Prolif wouldn't care about radius at all, so no "monster moved within range of another monster" prolif, corpse or living.

Even if this is done, even if corpse-based and resistance-variance-based prolif are fixed, I still believe very strongly that the status effect on the primary target should be less than non-Prolif. It is the only way to add meaningful choice to the situation when Prolif is considered to support an otherwise single- or low-target skill.

The only change I think prolif needs is for the application method to be different-it's just silly that if you freeze a random mook the bos with 100x as much life that you'd never hope to freeze directly gets frozen for just as long.

Proliferation should be an instant effect at the time of the status effect that applies duration to each enemy that was in the area at that time based on their own HP pool rather then the current silly "ongoing aura from the origonal target" system.



Frankly proliferation does have a damage penalty: the opportunity cost of using a bonus damage gem. the reason things like multiple projectiles & chain have additional penalties is they don't just increase status effect application, they result in more damage applied(across more enemies naturally) in ALL aspects of the skill they support- more elemental status effect, more base hit damage, more lifesteal and so on.

Heck, for any shotgunning skill multiplep rojectiles is far less of a tradeoff then proliferation. Proliferations while improving multitarget means less damage against single targets, multiple projectiles means more damage against both.