Elemental Proliferation is fine.

"

Further flameblast nerfs

If i was in GGG ballance team, i would sujest not to nerf damage, but add status "can't ignite" and change quality bonus for + AOE.

Just a thought.

"

Thats how GGG designed crit to work in PoE

And it could be a mistake.

I'm pretty sure its hard as shit to balance complex things, but what you are talking about is taking everything that is, as it is, and don't try.

goetz are you just completely missing my point here? Regardless of the original statement, which I'm not sure about he's just echoing other people's ideas on how to nerf crit. Which I somewhat agree with but it would radically change the game so I'm unsure of.

But if this went into effect tomorrow, windripper would be the best way for a bow build to apply a shock and freeze as it's % chance to proc, as there's no weapon that gives this, the best way to apply it is through high APS. Windripper has the 2nd highest APS of all bows and it's high crit chance will allow for longer durations on those procs unlike quill. Then there's the MF bonuses for killing shocked/frozen mobs. It's literally the best option whether or not crits apply status ailments for bows, period.

Having to travel on the tree to make something work is also another nonsense argument. As adding this to the game would be a radical change and would obviously require adding additional chance to proc ailments to the tree, probably following the normal themes of freeze being in DEX, shock in INT and ignite in STR. Also no one is forcing anyone to make a windripper chance to freeze/shock build period, but requiring someone who is trying to do so to go to the shadow tree isn't a crime.

"

If the "balance" people have their way:

Further flameblast nerfs, because this spell allows for a charge up with increased aoe and damage. Its a good spell and even another 20% nerf won't remove it from use, although it isn't necessary either.

It's original nerf and future nerfs could be prevented by reining in prolif. The combination is clearly very powerful and allows off screen kills all directions. A power and AOE level unmatched by any other skill, even discharge will struggle to compete.

"

Change interaction of Mjolner to put it on par with CoC, even though mjolner is a super rare unique item, when paired with volls ammy it becomes "too good"

If anything just make mjolnir rarer. It's good to have extremely powerful items in the game, it's an item that needs to be built around and it should be strong. I've never been one to nerf super endgame shit, as it should be ridiculously powerful. Prolif isn't super endgame, it's super budget that can almost compete with super endgame, hence the complaints.

"

Surgeons flask removed.

Well you're missing the whole picture here when talking shit that's been around for a long time. Surgeon mods were removed from diamond flasks (the old OP ones, anyone disagreeing with that nerf?) and OB added all the res flasks. The combination of res flasks and surgeons is just as powerful as surgeon diamond flasks but doesn't result in obscene clear speed, just allows users to trivialize some content. I was able to literally just stand in place, not moving at all, to kill atziri. Life total never moving, because of surgeon flasks. How isn't that broken? Why should an already high damage archetype, crit, also get virtual immunity? There's nothing even remotely comparable for non-crit builds, especially in boss fights. If you don't understand how powerful this is, you clearly just haven't seen it in action. 100% immunity to elements, throw in some end charges w/ legacy lightning coil and you're taking less than 50% physical damage too.

"

TS nerfed, although I'll agree its pretty good, especially compared to split arrow (from a year ago that is)

TBH, I rather just see LA get buffed. My last 3 builds have cleared faster than my TS friend. I'm starting to think that it's a bunch of people showing off with GG gear. LA was ruined trying to balance it around shock stacks and now that those are gone LA is pretty lackluster. Split arrow has always stayed in the spotlight and HoA made ice shot prolif pretty popular. Burning arrow prolif builds are bound to pop up with the recent BOTW video. So bow skills besides LA are pretty set.

"

The list goes on and on, I am overall fine with tree changes, nerfing block, ect, but simply removing mechanics from builds because "lol its already op no matter what" isn't a valid argument. Thats how GGG designed crit to work in PoE.

You hate when people do this to you, so don't belittle our argument either. There's multiple people all lining up why prolif is stupidly strong. I've pointed out many skills and even mechanics that have been nerfed because of it too.

Besides the "don't nerf anything else" and "it's unique" arguments, I haven't heard anything that really sounds like it should stay in it's current state. Obviously GGG has a special place for it, so it might not matter what you guys say, but I'm really getting sick of hearing prolif is fine when it's been explained multiple times, in multiple ways, it clearly isn't.

"

maxkardinal wrote:

"

Further flameblast nerfs

If i was in GGG ballance team, i would sujest not to nerf damage, but add status "can't ignite" and change quality bonus for + AOE.

Just a thought.

If flameblast couldn't ignite it would never be used endgame. Why, because that is why you pick fire spells, they can do average damage with some damage over time. Flamesurge is the fire spell that doesn't ignite, but it was designed specifically to do more damage to ignited characters (therefore a secondary fire skill)

Cold spells can chill\freeze

Lightning can shock, although this was nerfed.

Can you see how all of these spells are balanced in such a way they provide both a) damage and b) a secondary effect?

"

Thats how GGG designed crit to work in PoE

"

And it could be a mistake.

I'm pretty sure its hard as shit to balance complex things, but what you are talking about is taking everything that is, as it is, and don't try.

They can balance the skill tree, unique items, ect, but changing mechanics at this point is completely crazy. This game isn't in beta, people are playing this game in standard, regular hc not just the leagues, so to say 30% of players will be affected by removing crit bonuses (surgeons, status aliments, ect) is probably an understatement.

GGG can add interesting mechanics or things to make PoE have more options, but removing them is admitting failure and not looking at other options available.

"

goetz are you just completely missing my point here?

Not missing the point, you simply don't understand mine.

"

Having to travel on the tree to make something work is also another nonsense argument. As adding this to the game would be a radical change and would obviously require adding additional chance to proc ailments to the tree, probably following the normal themes of freeze being in DEX, shock in INT and ignite in STR. Also no one is forcing anyone to make a windripper chance to freeze/shock build period

So your saying crit builds will have to choose between utilizing the crit base of the bow and investing into shock\freeze to get the bonus, don't you think that is a bit counter productive and very targeted?

"

but requiring someone who is trying to do so to go to the shadow tree isn't a crime.

In terms of the statement of "in poe you can do anything with any class" it pretty much is.

"

It's original nerf and future nerfs could be prevented by reining in prolif. The combination is clearly very powerful and allows off screen kills all directions. A power and AOE level unmatched by any other skill, even discharge will struggle to compete.

Yet you have to stand still to charge it, people always seem to forget about the downsides of such builds when they mention the positives, especially when it comes to nerfing something.

"

If anything just make mjolnir rarer. It's good to have extremely powerful items in the game, it's an item that needs to be built around and it should be strong. I've never been one to nerf super endgame shit, as it should be ridiculously powerful. Prolif isn't super endgame, it's super budget that can almost compete with super endgame, hence the complaints.

I just want to wait to see what GGG does for Act 4, simply hope that they don't just nerf the fuck out of everything, but rather buff some very underutilized things. Prolif was a way of making spells (and effects) more balanced, however like all things in PoE players find a way of best exploiting it :D

"

Well you're missing the whole picture here when talking shit that's been around for a long time. Surgeon mods were removed from diamond flasks (the old OP ones, anyone disagreeing with that nerf?) and OB added all the res flasks. The combination of res flasks and surgeons is just as powerful as surgeon diamond flasks but doesn't result in obscene clear speed, just allows users to trivialize some content. I was able to literally just stand and place, not moving at all, to kill atziri. Life total never moving, because of surgeon flasks. How isn't that broken? Why should an already high damage archetype, crit, also get virtual immunity? There's nothing even remotely comparable for non-crit builds, especially in boss fights. If you don't understand how powerful this is, you clearly just haven't seen it in action. 100% immunity to elements, throw in some end charges w/ legacy lightning coil and you're taking less than 50% physical damage too.

Well think about it surgeons mod on a diamond flask? That was never going to be a good idea, it wasn't until quite a few things that elemental surgeons flask became an issue. Change from purities from 1 to 3 separate auras, individually with higher max res, atziri, which the fight in itself presses for higher level defenses then the rest of the game (especially uber atziri) and the popularity of the crit builds rising.

In regards to boss fights and no options available for others, I think melee stun would be a great mod to add to the pool, its very niche and IMO would help melee be a tiny bit more balanced. But I want to reiterate the fact that I don't think PoE should be balanced on Uber atziri. While you can see from players like HvC how "trival" uber atzri can be with the correct build and how "safe" it is, he's already burnt out from playing it.

Legacy lightning coil is pointless to bring up when you talk about balance, so please don't use that in the future. In terms of endurance charges yes, that and or immortal call\id makes for what can be (with very specific gameplay) high or very high immunity.

"

TBH, I rather just see LA get buffed. My last 3 builds have cleared faster than my TS friend. I'm starting to think that it's a bunch of people showing off with GG gear. LA was ruined trying to balance it around shock stacks and now that those are gone LA is pretty lackluster. Split arrow has always stayed in the spotlight and HoA made ice shot prolif pretty popular. Burning arrow prolif builds are bound to pop up with the recent BOTW video. So bow skills besides LA are pretty set.

Would love to see LA be buffed, sad to see the unqiues based around it aren't used anymore.

"

I'm really getting sick of hearing prolif is fine when it's been explained multiple times, in multiple ways, it clearly isn't.

You are entitled to your opinion, but to say others can't disagree because you have people on your side is incorrect. Everyone can both agree or disagree if they choose.

In general I am ok with nerfing things, just not removing mechanics or making things to a point where builds that rely on said mechanic can't work anymore.

The more this thread goes on, the less useful/positive the suggestions become... it's devolved into a "let's see how hard we can fucking nerf this" thread. No thanks. Better to leave it alone than ruin it. If people could get back to reasonable changes--and justification for them--appropriate changes might be possible. As it is, I don't see that happening.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Not missing the point, you simply don't understand mine.

You know how people continue to miss the point, when you say they miss the point then don't explain it. If status ailments don't occur from crits, they only occur from % chance to proc, which means the best way to get them is through high amount of hits, for bows this would be additional arrows and APS. As windripper has the highest APS behind quill, it will apply the ailments second fastest of all bows. Because it doesn't have a damage reduction, in fact has decent stand alone ele damage, it makes it better than quill rain. Because it has it's MF bonuses, it's in fact the best bow for ailments whether or not through crit. If you wanted RT bow build that depended on shock and freeze, today, the best bow for the job would be windripper.

Please explain to me where I'm remotely wrong here.

"

So your saying crit builds will have to choose between utilizing the crit base of the bow and investing into shock\freeze to get the bonus, don't you think that is a bit counter productive and very targeted?

Yes, because you're looking at them with our current model. If things were adjusted so they were exclusive things it wouldn't be an issue. Basically you're asking why does chance to ignite gem exist when you can just crit everything for the same effect.

"

In terms of the statement of "in poe you can do anything with any class" it pretty much is.

So shadows should be able to do BM easily? Spell crit duelist should be as easy as witch? You really need someone to say this sentence makes no sense? Am I talking to a person or a machine designed to just counter anything I say. You can do anything with any class but everything should come with a cost.

If ailments were removed from crit, again a hypothetical I don't totally support, then expecting a build that wants shock to invest in shock chance isn't a stretch. How it's balanced is another story. Also I don't think shock in it's current state would ever be more appealing than crit and wouldn't be taken with crit unless inexpensive to do so.

"

Yet you have to stand still to charge it, people always seem to forget about the downsides of such builds when they mention the positives, especially when it comes to nerfing something.

Fireball and ice spear are skills that aren't used widely because of how slow they are. Flameblast is so good that even with the charge up people consider it the strongest spell. It's so strong that 1 stack crit prolif builds exist. It's so strong people take RT so they don't crit on reflect by accident.

I'm not saying it deserves further nerfs because I haven't touched it. But if this is really your justification for it not receiving it's new nerf then I'm just lost. The skill was obviously OP. The fact that it was nerfed 20% and people are still calling for more nerfs is clear how strong it was prior.

"

I just want to wait to see what GGG does for Act 4, simply hope that they don't just nerf the fuck out of everything, but rather buff some very underutilized things. Prolif was a way of making spells (and effects) more balanced, however like all things in PoE players find a way of best exploiting it :D

When has GGG "nerfed the fuck out of everything." I use the term often, but unreasonable comes to mind. Because someone asks for a nerf to prolif doesn't mean I'm asking everything to be nerfed. In the "nerf these gems" thread I was against just about every one he listed. If you can't look at each case and speaker separately and understand I'm not one of those guys who sees a random streamer doing well and screams nerf then we just shouldn't be talking any more.

"

Well think about it surgeons mod on a diamond flask? That was never going to be a good idea, it wasn't until quite a few things that elemental surgeons flask became an issue. Change from purities from 1 to 3 separate auras, individually with higher max res, atziri, which the fight in itself presses for higher level defenses then the rest of the game (especially uber atziri) and the popularity of the crit builds rising.

In regards to boss fights and no options available for others, I think melee stun would be a great mod to add to the pool, its very niche and IMO would help melee be a tiny bit more balanced. But I want to reiterate the fact that I don't think PoE should be balanced on Uber atziri. While you can see from players like HvC how "trival" uber atzri can be with the correct build and how "safe" it is, he's already burnt out from playing it.

Yes the few changes made the flasks WAY better and made surgeons WAY better. Elemental Adaption disappearing, the tree going from an easy 5% max to 1 spread far for each. Saffells got a nerf. The purities got a 1% max nerf. But flasks got a 30% buff and because of them 100% ele res is still possible. Also, you're right that shit shouldn't be balanced around atziri, but she's the only reason to have 100% res, the res flasks just as 13%, with perma uptime during a normal map boss makes them a joke. With a little focus you can completely trivialize all of the end game map bosses.

I already said, when I switched from my SWT build to my CoC atziri build I just never went from 99 to 100, like I planned, because the game was too fucking easy. If uber atziri can barely get me below 50%, wtf in the normal game is. I mean shit, my friend and I did all the beyond bosses over 2 100% IIQ 78s for the challenge. With 1 fps I took out abaxoth.

"

Legacy lightning coil is pointless to bring up when you talk about balance, so please don't use that in the future. In terms of endurance charges yes, that and or immortal call\id makes for what can be (with very specific gameplay) high or very high immunity.

I say legacy because when I did my build they weren't. And I'm not talking end charges with any focus, I mean cwdt + end cry, no extra charges. That + the res flasks was 52% less physical damage before armor. Now it's 42%, not really a big difference but still a huge chunk of damage gone.

"

You are entitled to your opinion, but to say others can't disagree because you have people on your side is incorrect. Everyone can both agree or disagree if they choose.

In general I am ok with nerfing things, just not removing mechanics or making things to a point where builds that rely on said mechanic can't work anymore.

Like I said, I haven't heard a counter argument beyond "it's fine" and "it's unique."

Also we're calling for balance and don't want to see it nerfed to hell. If that's really the argument, "leave it alone because you don't know what you're doing" well I don't think that's reason not to nerf something. Should MA have been left alone? It was a cool mechanic that was obviously too strong. Is it better than it got nerfed to hell or to leave it alone?

I understand if you have a % chance to inflict a status aliment you want to attack as fast as possible.

"

Yes, because you're looking at them with our current model. If things were adjusted so they were exclusive things it wouldn't be an issue. Basically you're asking why does chance to ignite gem exist when you can just crit everything for the same effect.

Chance to ignite exists because some builds rather not go crit but rely on a safer burn over time.

"

So shadows should be able to do BM easily? Spell crit duelist should be as easy as witch? You really need someone to say this sentence makes no sense? Am I talking to a person or a machine designed to just counter anything I say. You can do anything with any class but everything should come with a cost.

No but a bow class should not be forced onto an int\dex hybrid. I'm not asking for bloodmagic shadow, I am asking if you thinks its ok that the hybrid class is forced here. Of course assuming the tree wouldn't change that much to compensate for it.

"

If ailments were removed from crit, again a hypothetical I don't totally support, then expecting a build that wants shock to invest in shock chance isn't a stretch. How it's balanced is another story. Also I don't think shock in it's current state would ever be more appealing than crit and wouldn't be taken with crit unless inexpensive to do so.

Correct.

"

Yet you have to stand still to charge it, people always seem to forget about the downsides of such builds when they mention the positives, especially when it comes to nerfing something.

"

Fireball and ice spear are skills that aren't used widely because of how slow they are. Flameblast is so good that even with the charge up people consider it the strongest spell. It's so strong that 1 stack crit prolif builds exist. It's so strong people take RT so they don't crit on reflect by accident.

Actually icespear was popular at the start of bloodlines, we saw it used for CC builds. Fireball is slow I will admit that, something needs to be done to make this more appealing then it is. Flameblast is strong because it not only gets stronger the longer you charge it but the AOE increases as well. I mentioned elsewhere that the gem should not scale the way it should, it should exponentially get stronger the longer you charge it instead of 100% or whatever every stage.

Wait do people go crit and non crit, seems to me that is the pinnacle of a balanced spell as it is viable either way.

"

I'm not saying it deserves further nerfs because I haven't touched it.

You really should try it, especially considering your positioning on prolif nerf.

"

But if this is really your justification for it not receiving it's new nerf then I'm just lost.

Thats not my only justification, it just literally got nerfed, no one can possibly know the ramifications of the change.

"

The skill was obviously OP. The fact that it was nerfed 20% and people are still calling for more nerfs is clear how strong it was prior

Now this statement I am suprised to see from you. Just because people call for nerfs for shit doesn't mean it is either necessary or a good idea. Again, until we see any information (which we mainly don't only GGG does) we can't begin to know if flameblast will be replaced or not as the "go to" skill.

"

With a little focus you can completely trivialize all of the end game map bosses.

Right, this really doesn't have anything to do with the flask and max res though. Courtyard boss(es) are really easy. Everyone skips palace dominus, piety is EZ even without flask and shipyard is EZ as well. The flask buff also requires specific builds to reach it, so its not like everyone gets it (although GGG could provide data about it)

"

I already said, when I switched from my SWT build to my CoC atziri build I just never went from 99 to 100, like I planned, because the game was too fucking easy. If uber atziri can barely get me below 50%, wtf in the normal game is. I mean shit, my friend and I did all the beyond bosses over 2 100% IIQ 78s for the challenge. With 1 fps I took out abaxoth.

Are you really complaining the game is too EZ for your level 99 character? Try doing the same fight, with the same gear but a level 80 or 85 character, I bet the fight would be a bit different then. You can't balance the game around level 99 characters. I know GGG plans on adding an alternative endgame in act 4, hopefully one with progressive difficulty for higher level, well geared characters.

"

I say legacy because when I did my build they weren't. And I'm not talking end charges with any focus, I mean cwdt + end cry, no extra charges. That + the res flasks was 52% less physical damage before armor. Now it's 42%, not really a big difference but still a huge chunk of damage gone.

Which is pretty nice, but I think we are a bit off topic here.

"

Like I said, I haven't heard a counter argument beyond "it's fine" and "it's unique."

Fire builds rely on burn, as such it relies of prolif the effect. Like i mentioned what the other skills get as secondary effects you want to remove or severely reduce the ability for fire builds to actually work, something I am not ok with.

"

Also we're calling for balance and don't want to see it nerfed to hell. If that's really the argument, "leave it alone because you don't know what you're doing" well I don't think that's reason not to nerf something. Should MA have been left alone? It was a cool mechanic that was obviously too strong. Is it better than it got nerfed to hell or to leave it alone?

MA was a huge exploit that should have never happened, no reason to have full life or as high as it did or leave it with the minion tag. You are trying to push some agenda because you are pissed your build got nerfed, now you are targeting anything, tbh i've lost some respect from you because it it. The fact you are still mentioning it so often makes me think you won't let this go until whatever agenda you have gets met :(

I'd love for people to just let GGG do their job and stop asking for any and everything to be nerfed, feedback should not be players constantly asking for shit to be nerfed, let alone players that don't or haven't used the skills. I am not saying players that haven't used the skills don't understand, but this is feedback not gem discussion, those forums exists for a reason. Everyone and their cousin seem to want to be GGG's balance team for some reason.

"

goetzjam wrote:

I understand if you have a % chance to inflict a status aliment you want to attack as fast as possible.

So then the question is what I am missing when you say

"

goetzjam wrote:

If status ailments couldn't be applied on critical hits bows like windripper would be completely pointless.

When I've just explained like 3 times it's literally the best bow for the job and you're saying I'm missing your point.

"

Chance to ignite exists because some builds rather not go crit but rely on a safer burn over time.

Exactly. If you took shock away from crits, brought back shock stacks, it's a way to scale non-crit builds now. It opens up diversity rather than limits it like you're trying to imply.

"

No but a bow class should not be forced onto an int\dex hybrid. I'm not asking for bloodmagic shadow, I am asking if you thinks its ok that the hybrid class is forced here. Of course assuming the tree wouldn't change that much to compensate for it.

Again, you're implying that they are forced to take status ailment passives when they aren't. They can go RT, crit, shock, burn, or freeze, like all other builds. The difference is it's an intellectual choice rather than all the latter options combined.

"

Actually icespear was popular at the start of bloodlines, we saw it used for CC builds. Fireball is slow I will admit that, something needs to be done to make this more appealing then it is. Flameblast is strong because it not only gets stronger the longer you charge it but the AOE increases as well. I mentioned elsewhere that the gem should not scale the way it should, it should exponentially get stronger the longer you charge it instead of 100% or whatever every stage.

Wait do people go crit and non crit, seems to me that is the pinnacle of a balanced spell as it is viable either way.

I did an ice spear build, and fireball (friend is currently leveling a fireball build and says it's great) because they are both slow at applying DPS. Neither is great before echo and they don't start to feel that great until late game when you have enough ICS. Same as flameblast, except you don't need to charge flameblast that long to get a powerful effect, 1-3 stacks + prolif can do tremendous work.

You're twisting my words. Having a charge up skill that can avoid it's charge up by going crit removes all the drawback you're pointing out. What other skill actively will avoid crit? Discharge, a skill that requires roughly the same charge up period and requires more build focus to make it work as well as flameblast. Again, all of this is pre-nerf flameblast.

"

You really should try it, especially considering your positioning on prolif nerf.

I hate cookie cutter and popular shit. When playing MA the broken component was burn + prolif, as a missed ignite left me running in circles for 3 seconds. Currently I'm rolling an EA build and lvl 16 gem, at lvl 67 just plowing through lvl 70 maps. Pure EHP gear, easier, cheaper to get than any of the MA stuff. Don't have to worry about going LL, trying to get high ES and chaos res, which is a nightmare to put together.

I leveled with a flameblaster a while back, so this is my 3rd burn prolif build this league. Each one has just felt way stronger than anything comparable. Ice spear and GS builds didn't feel strong until mid-80s with decent gear and enough crit chance from tree. Facebreaker shield charger had major damage jumps early but never felt too powerful at how clunky it was to play. Only reason it even worked was because of burn prolif from HoA. Also there's the scold's RF VMS build, which again, great damage made insane by prolif.

So...ya...I have some prolif experience. Did I mention the ice spear build started as a AoF project I started in alpha but converted to just straight ice spear when I realized it wasn't working so well?

In hindsight, torment has pretty much been the burn prolif league for me if you ignore my GSer.

"

Now this statement I am suprised to see from you. Just because people call for nerfs for shit doesn't mean it is either necessary or a good idea. Again, until we see any information (which we mainly don't only GGG does) we can't begin to know if flameblast will be replaced or not as the "go to" skill.

No one is calling for MA to get another nerf. When people are saying to nerf something after it's been nerfed, I usually look at it that it really deserved the nerf. I won't consider if it needs another until I see it in action. The point isn't that I think it needs another nerf, only that people don't ask for shit like shock nova to be nerfed.

"

Right, this really doesn't have anything to do with the flask and max res though. Courtyard boss(es) are really easy. Everyone skips palace dominus, piety is EZ even without flask and shipyard is EZ as well. The flask buff also requires specific builds to reach it, so its not like everyone gets it (although GGG could provide data about it)

With flasks you don't need to skip palace dom (which it's actually an easy fight if you learn the mechanics), you can tank piety w/ the flasks (every guide I read says avoid ice form, with the flasks who cares), crem boss goes from almost impossible to not bad. Shipyard is a joke even if you aren't a tank, not exactly news. Courtyard bosses have been nerfed heavily since their buff in 1.2, anuhart was talking about how he got one shot by the leap slammer w/ 8k life (maybe higher?) and I got hit the other day w/ 5k and was fine. So, they were harder, flasks made them much easier.

"

Are you really complaining the game is too EZ for your level 99 character? Try doing the same fight, with the same gear but a level 80 or 85 character, I bet the fight would be a bit different then. You can't balance the game around level 99 characters. I know GGG plans on adding an alternative endgame in act 4, hopefully one with progressive difficulty for higher level, well geared characters.

Well 78s aren't really designed around lvl 80 character. But if I could get all the passives needed to make the res work, it's not like any of the gear had req lvl of over 80. The build was nerfed in 1.3 so I'd have to take a look but pretty sure my roommate got a workable version going in his mid-80s. I assume if I wanted the same EHP I'd have to sac DPS or life to get it done.

So, no, not sure it would be much different. Uber atziri, god yes, difference between 80 and 99 would be night and day. Courtyard/Palace, I doubt it, might take a little longer but still pretty risk free.

"

Fire builds rely on burn, as such it relies of prolif the effect. Like i mentioned what the other skills get as secondary effects you want to remove or severely reduce the ability for fire builds to actually work, something I am not ok with.

Bow builds rely on LMP/GMP. How does the DR or lack of all the unique effects prolif have not break bow builds? Wouldn't you argue LMP/GMP are fairly balanced gems? Why do the limitation work for those but not prolif?

"

MA was a huge exploit that should have never happened, no reason to have full life or as high as it did or leave it with the minion tag. You are trying to push some agenda because you are pissed your build got nerfed, now you are targeting anything, tbh i've lost some respect from you because it it. The fact you are still mentioning it so often makes me think you won't let this go until whatever agenda you have gets met :(

If I cared what people thought of me I wouldn't argue with so many people on these forums. I still think you're way off base with the intention argument and it's odd to see a post that says builds should be limitless, a gem should keep it's uniqueness, also this gem should be limited to a few things. Also you still haven't explained why they'd readjust it's life, give the gem higher DR, rather than just remove the mechanic. Seems like something unintended could be easily fixed so it's impossible, but no, keep on with that argument. Maybe if you repeat it enough it will make sense.

My agenda is that prolif is the reason all of these nerfs are going through. If prolif didn't exist, MA would have been really shitty. Might have had impressive concentrated damage if it just ignited, but it's the fact that it left a nuclear fallout area after it ignited that made it insane. The size it got from prolif, the reach and the damage potential because it allows you to ignore res, works off corpses, the laundry list of shit mentioned in this thread already.

If you want me to go off a skill that's intended, EA is more insane as I can lay 5 charges, have a massive explosion which then ignites the entire screen, possibly even off screen shit. The base and potential AOE is much larger than MA, also I recently dropped chance to ignite because I just don't need it allowing me to get higher DPS in it's place. I'm actually a little shocked EA isn't more popular, it's almost as broken as MA and hasn't been touched since the same time I started playing according the wiki, patch 9.12 was it's last adjustment.

So my agenda isn't to unnerf MA, it's to get the real problem before more cool ideas get ruined.

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I'd love for people to just let GGG do their job and stop asking for any and everything to be nerfed, feedback should not be players constantly asking for shit to be nerfed, let alone players that don't or haven't used the skills. I am not saying players that haven't used the skills don't understand, but this is feedback not gem discussion, those forums exists for a reason. Everyone and their cousin seem to want to be GGG's balance team for some reason.

It's a feedback forum, we're giving game feedback. Who are you to say what we can and can't give feedback on? We also aren't forcing GGG's hand in anyway. Seriously read what you wrote and imagine someone saying that to you. You don't see any problems with it?

You could have boiled this post down very simply.

"Everything you say doesn't matter, your opinion is bias and you should just stop giving feedback"

How about we go to the root here. Pick one of the complaints about prolif and tell me why it isn't bad. Dealers choice, anyone just give an actual reason so we can maybe actually discuss the topic at hand. Maybe come to a compromise as it seems much of the push back is a fear it will be nerfed too much.

Only going to respond to the crucial points here:

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Again, you're implying that they are forced to take status ailment passives when they aren't. They can go RT, crit, shock, burn, or freeze, like all other builds. The difference is it's an intellectual choice rather than all the latter options combined.

If you are using a bow that is high crit chance, fast attacking, but low on dps (relatively) and the whole idea of the bow is to crit AND use status aliments to increase IIQ\IIQ, then yes you ARE forcing a user into this pigeon'd class selection.

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I did an ice spear build, and fireball (friend is currently leveling a fireball build and says it's great) because they are both slow at applying DPS. Neither is great before echo and they don't start to feel that great until late game when you have enough ICS. Same as flameblast, except you don't need to charge flameblast that long to get a powerful effect, 1-3 stacks + prolif can do tremendous work.

Lots of spells don't feel great without spell echo, that argument is pointless. With 3 dragons and ice spear you can prolif and ignite as well. The whole idea though with cold spells is to give crowd control options, which it does do (i've seen it with my own eyes)

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You're twisting my words. Having a charge up skill that can avoid it's charge up by going crit removes all the drawback you're pointing out. What other skill actively will avoid crit? Discharge, a skill that requires roughly the same charge up period and requires more build focus to make it work as well as flameblast. Again, all of this is pre-nerf flameblast.

Crit doesn't come without investment...and as I've stated before I always thought this 1 stack crit builds should have never been a thing as the spell should have had different scaling.

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I hate cookie cutter and popular shit. When playing MA the broken component was burn + prolif, as a missed ignite left me running in circles for 3 seconds. Currently I'm rolling an EA build and lvl 16 gem, at lvl 67 just plowing through lvl 70 maps. Pure EHP gear, easier, cheaper to get than any of the MA stuff. Don't have to worry about going LL, trying to get high ES and chaos res, which is a nightmare to put together.

Ok, kinda missing your point here. Are you suggesting that because MA had a cooldown it was completely balanced in that build, if so all I can say is ROFL.

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I leveled with a flameblaster a while back, so this is my 3rd burn prolif build this league. Each one has just felt way stronger than anything comparable.

What are you comparing apples to oranges for? If flameblast\fire prolif was 100% the best and only way to play the game, if crit was the best way to do damage, then why would anyone else do anything else? The whole argument of "felt stronger" is completely asinine and ignorant when it comes to giving feedback.

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No one is calling for MA to get another nerf. When people are saying to nerf something after it's been nerfed, I usually look at it that it really deserved the nerf. I won't consider if it needs another until I see it in action. The point isn't that I think it needs another nerf, only that people don't ask for shit like shock nova to be nerfed.

So you mean people don't ask for non-popular skills they never see streamers use to get nerfed? I mean of course people don't ask for skills that they don't see to get nerfed....

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With flasks you don't need to skip palace dom (which it's actually an easy fight if you learn the mechanics), you can tank piety w/ the flasks (every guide I read says avoid ice form, with the flasks who cares), crem boss goes from almost impossible to not bad. Shipyard is a joke even if you aren't a tank, not exactly news. Courtyard bosses have been nerfed heavily since their buff in 1.2, anuhart was talking about how he got one shot by the leap slammer w/ 8k life (maybe higher?) and I got hit the other day w/ 5k and was fine. So, they were harder, flasks made them much easier.

I know you don't HAVE to skip palance dom, but if your doing a map rotation party most people in the party probably won't have the EHP or build that abuses flask to feel safe.

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Well 78s aren't really designed around lvl 80 character. But if I could get all the passives needed to make the res work, it's not like any of the gear had req lvl of over 80. The build was nerfed in 1.3 so I'd have to take a look but pretty sure my roommate got a workable version going in his mid-80s. I assume if I wanted the same EHP I'd have to sac DPS or life to get it done.

Ok even the difference between 85 or 90 is still huge from 99, not to mention the difference in wealth a level 99 player should have compared to a new level 85 or 90 character.

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It's a feedback forum, we're giving game feedback. Who are you to say what we can and can't give feedback on? We also aren't forcing GGG's hand in anyway. Seriously read what you wrote and imagine someone saying that to you. You don't see any problems with it?

Feedback is not arguing with every single person that disagrees with you or rather see builds still work after adjustments. I am never opposed to change that still allows for people to have their builds work, but things that have been in the game for a very long time (surgeons, uncapped crit, ect all should stay as such)

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"Everything you say doesn't matter, your opinion is bias and you should just stop giving feedback"

No.....we know for a fact you are very salty about your mirror arrow build being nerfed. This is indisputable. Your post and tone of post since then have changed significantly if you haven't seen this by now you won't ever see it.

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Maybe come to a compromise as it seems much of the push back is a fear it will be nerfed too much.

That is the specific case for me, again I don't care if it slightly changed, but people claiming its the only way to play is complete bullshit, it isn't you aren't losing anything by not using it (unless if course you are using fire skills that really don't shine unless they prolif)

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goetzjam wrote:

If you are using a bow that is high crit chance, fast attacking, but low on dps (relatively) and the whole idea of the bow is to crit AND use status aliments to increase IIQ\IIQ, then yes you ARE forcing a user into this pigeon'd class selection.

You can say this for most builds centered around uniques. How many CoD users are not getting EB and mana regen? Lightning coil users just ignore lightning res? Are there many RT dagger builds? Crit mace builds?

And again, we're talking hypothetically about a situation that probably isn't going to happen. It's a situation in which both of us might be right. For you to refuse to accept windripper could be good without it's crit is a little odd though.

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Crit doesn't come without investment...and as I've stated before I always thought this 1 stack crit builds should have never been a thing as the spell should have had different scaling.

You just said that was good skill diversity.

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Ok, kinda missing your point here. Are you suggesting that because MA had a cooldown it was completely balanced in that build, if so all I can say is ROFL.

1. I've never implied MA would be balanced in it's previous state. My point though is without prolif in it's previous state it would suck ass.

2. Also when comparing it to EA, it's to show that if there's 3 skills that are OP burn applications, maybe it's how the burn is spreading that's the problem, not the skill damage.

Because I already get the feeling you're trying to twist it as we're talking about it enough.

MA DESERVED A NERF! I'm getting sick of repeating it and insulted that you keep twisting my words to try to make it sound like otherwise.

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What are you comparing apples to oranges for? If flameblast\fire prolif was 100% the best and only way to play the game, if crit was the best way to do damage, then why would anyone else do anything else? The whole argument of "felt stronger" is completely asinine and ignorant when it comes to giving feedback.

If both non-crit and crit are equally strong, the only thing that comes with crit is potentially killing yourself on reflect. Most of the high dps shit we see is scaled through high attack/cast per second. Flameblast is raw damage making it' much more difficult to mitigate.

Also we are far from talking objectivity here, so stop acting like most of your opinions aren't based on your feel when playing. There's going to be hardly any times where builds and gear are the same yet the skills are different. Then the difference between clear speed isn't too clear unless amazing or terrible.

So again, most of this discussion is going to be based off personal feeling so if you want to dismiss it I expect researched proof before you reply to anything.

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Ok even the difference between 85 or 90 is still huge from 99, not to mention the difference in wealth a level 99 player should have compared to a new level 85 or 90 character.

Irrelevant. If you're going to put qualifiers like it has to be first character of the league, self found, man mode, HC league, then sure I probably won't be able to pull it off.

Like I said, the difference between 85 and 99 will be DPS and life, but I'm fairly positive I can get the mitigation to be the same or very close.

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Feedback is not arguing with every single person that disagrees with you or rather see builds still work after adjustments. I am never opposed to change that still allows for people to have their builds work, but things that have been in the game for a very long time (surgeons, uncapped crit, ect all should stay as such)

Why not? I firmly believe a good suggestion can stand up to much criticism. The fact that you still have yet to directly address any of the exact complaints with prolif is good point to this. You're putting more effort into arguing with me than the issue at hand. I get bored easy, I'll go with this for days against anyone but I sure as fuck will make my points and I hope when GGG reads my posts my POV is very clear and understandable.

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No.....we know for a fact you are very salty about your mirror arrow build being nerfed. This is indisputable. Your post and tone of post since then have changed significantly if you haven't seen this by now you won't ever see it.

No, I'm just in my aggressive stance. You just haven't seen me around here enough to know this side of me. Also we've been on the same sides until recently. I've explained my frustrations with the MA nerfs many times now and I feel you've completely ignored most of my attempts, which is part of my annoyance with specifically you though.

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That is the specific case for me, again I don't care if it slightly changed, but people claiming its the only way to play is complete bullshit, it isn't you aren't losing anything by not using it (unless if course you are using fire skills that really don't shine unless they prolif)

I didn't even realize I made so many prolif builds this league. This is another case of me advocating against my builds. Prolif is clearly broken. You also ignored and removed the only thing I wanted you to respond to. You could have ignored the rest of my post if you just answered that question. It furthers my point that you guys are just refusing change, not that we are wrong. Which is fine, but just be honest, say you don't want these things changed because they've been around so long, not because they're "fine" or "balanced." Giving long arguments that don't address the core of the issue. So let me repeat it and maybe this time you'll actually get on topic.

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Moosifer wrote:

How about we go to the root here. Pick one of the complaints about prolif and tell me why it isn't bad. Dealers choice, anyone, just give an actual reason so we can maybe actually discuss the topic at hand. Maybe come to a compromise as it seems much of the push back is a fear it will be nerfed too much.