Stop messing with people's builds mid league GGG

You are so far biased on this situation to give a clear judgement on it. Intended interactions are very important when it comes to balance, for example cast on death RF wasn't intended to work, they fixed it. If you come up with a build that is simply overpowered the best solution is to keep quite about it until the last week or two, you should blame whoever for posting that video not GGG for nerfing it.

MI has been broken before, tbh im not sure why they even gave mirror arrow the minion tag, it was unnecessary and allowed for this exploit in the first place.

"prolif" has been a "problem" in poe for a while. I think it is the only thing keeping fire builds alive though.

But you are right, the nature of which they nerfed it seems very harsh, i'd rather they remove the minion tag from the gem then make any other changes, of course that makes this niche build not possible at all, it would remove unintended and broken mechanics from a gem that was never designed to do.

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goetzjam wrote:

You are so far biased on this situation to give a clear judgement on it. Intended interactions are very important when it comes to balance, for example cast on death RF wasn't intended to work, they fixed it. If you come up with a build that is simply overpowered the best solution is to keep quite about it until the last week or two, you should blame whoever for posting that video not GGG for nerfing it.

MI has been broken before, tbh im not sure why they even gave mirror arrow the minion tag, it was unnecessary and allowed for this exploit in the first place.

"prolif" has been a "problem" in poe for a while. I think it is the only thing keeping fire builds alive though.

But you are right, the nature of which they nerfed it seems very harsh, i'd rather they remove the minion tag from the gem then make any other changes, of course that makes this niche build not possible at all, it would remove unintended and broken mechanics from a gem that was never designed to do.

You skipped my big quote. CoD - RF wasn't intended so it was removed. If MA + MI wasn't intended why were the bugs that pretended it from being used removed rather than the interaction? Why is MA allowed to copy your LL status even though it has no other connection to the users life total? Instantly fixed, devs make it clear they don't want this in the game.

That's why I say your argument is so poor. They could have removed the mechanic completely rather than leaving a weak version of itself behind. Qarl wouldn't leave something he thinks is still probably OP in the game if he wanted it gone.

You're outlook on things that all things should or shouldn't be intended bore me. I spend hours looking for shit the devs might not have intended.

Also I don't release builds and I only recently started streaming on and off now that I have a decent video card, but I've had some pretty OP builds that have been nerfed. GGG has a ton of statistics at their fingertips and I think the only difference between releasing the video and not is how the masses support you.

There's been some weird nerfs that no one understand why they were nerfing it, you can't hide shit from people who have everyone's characters on a backup server.

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You skipped my big quote. CoD - RF wasn't intended so it was removed. If MA + MI wasn't intended why were the bugs that pretended it from being used removed rather than the interaction? Why is MA allowed to copy your LL status even though it has no other connection to the users life total? Instantly fixed, devs make it clear they don't want this in the game.

That's why I say your argument is so poor. They could have removed the mechanic completely rather than leaving a weak version of itself behind. Qarl wouldn't leave something he thinks is still probably OP in the game if he wanted it gone.

I think they want the heavily invested build to still work in some fashion, then again this is a design issue that I cannot speak of.

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You're outlook on things that all things should or shouldn't be intended bore me. I spend hours looking for shit the devs might not have intended.

Which I presume why you're an alpha member, if only you all would of caught this BEFORE it was added to the main game we wouldn't be discussing it now would we?

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Also I don't release builds and I only recently started streaming on and off now that I have a decent video card, but I've had some pretty OP builds that have been nerfed. GGG has a ton of statistics at their fingertips and I think the only difference between releasing the video and not is how the masses support you.

I know GGG has other methods to find builds then videos, but make no mistake that video had a larger impact on the build getting nerfed swiftly then anything else.

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There's been some weird nerfs that no one understand why they were nerfing it, you can't hide shit from people who have everyone's characters on a backup server.

No but you aren't exactly hiding builds when you go (not you specifically) about posting it on one of the most popular poe discussion areas (reddit)

Sorry, Moose, but I'm kind of a purist in that regard. If you asked me a lot of mechanics in this game are being misused for ages, like EE, RF or such, they aren't being used they way they were originally meant to at all but they are tolerated because everybody's used to it by now (and they aren't breaking much).

Those are pretty much nitpicks, but this cloning issue has been plain idiotic. It was probably fixed this clumsily because they had no time to bother with it right now, I think they gave it such a big penalty because they didn't want us to use it, they haven't even tried to balance it right.

the degree of crying and rage is still going strong and that everyone is wrong and im right attitude.. how sad. this is just another of many examples of something GGG has been doing for ages now, called precedence. except they nip this much earlier than to let go on for longer, which should be applauded. whether its right or wrong, its fair. man up and get over it already.

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goetzjam wrote:

I think they want the heavily invested build to still work in some fashion, then again this is a design issue that I cannot speak of.

Again non-sense. First, this argument only really applies to pre-nerf which should I just put that I think the skill should be nerfed at the beginning of everyone of my posts so it doesn't get ignored? Which now compare peppr's 78 clear to ghazzy's SRS build. Are you telling me those builds are comparable even though the gear level is fairly similar? Also 100 ex should come with a high clear speed, again, I've never made a build for over 100 ex and most of my end game builds blow MA's current form out of the water.

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Which I presume why you're an alpha member, if only you all would of caught this BEFORE it was added to the main game we wouldn't be discussing it now would we?

So we're making this personal then. How about the patch fixing MA went live on both servers around the same time. What do you think we sit on these small patches for a week before they go through? Alpha is mostly for bug hunting, we didn't catch the original bug because it was extremely specific and most of alpha was focused on PVP.

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I know GGG has other methods to find builds then videos, but make no mistake that video had a larger impact on the build getting nerfed swiftly then anything else.

That's the difference. My builds get nerfed for major patches. A build that everyone falls in love with will be nerfed before the weekend. Both end up nerfed, not releasing the info doesn't prevent it.

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raics wrote:

Sorry, Moose, but I'm kind of a purist in that regard. If you asked me a lot of mechanics in this game are being misused for ages, like EE, RF or such, they aren't being used they way they were originally meant to at all but they are tolerated because everybody's used to it by now (and they aren't breaking much).

Those are pretty much nitpicks, but this cloning issue has been plain idiotic. It was probably fixed this clumsily because they had no time to bother with it right now, I think they gave it such a big penalty because they didn't want us to use it, they haven't even tried to balance it right.

I don't care about your personal views on it, but it's clear over a while now that GGG doesn't fully flush everything out before releasing it and want to see if we can come up with new shit. Even obvious stuff. They are testing PVP, they release vengeance and allow it to be used with facebreakers. Wouldn't this be one of the first things tested to see if it's too strong? Nope, made it through, people show it's insane, gets nerfed. All of the things you listed could easily be changed so they are being used how intended. Like RF was adjusted so it wasn't as easily abused, they could have just removed the more spell damage mod making it used for only what it says at face value.

I also disagree with the 2nd point. If they did not want it being used, simply remove the thing that doesn't make sense, the minion having low life when it lands. It doesn't match how any other minion works, it doesn't have any other interaction with your life total, it gets the point across and you don't have to put in the DR alongside the life nerf to make it still usable as a decoy, so it's less work, more graceful, shows clear purpose that the interaction is not intended to be used. Instead they nerf it and claim it might still be OP. You don't leave something OP if you don't want it existing.

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So we're making this personal then. How about the patch fixing MA went live on both servers around the same time. What do you think we sit on these small patches for a week before they go through? Alpha is mostly for bug hunting, we didn't catch the original bug because it was extremely specific and most of alpha was focused on PVP.

No not making it personal you are only 1 of many alpha members, I understand a lot of testing went into PvP, but that shouldn't excuse the team from testing things like this. I don't know if this is a fail on alpha performance or the lack of leadership and assigned roles, but alpha hasn't fully tested quite a few things that would have been caught.

I am slightly torn on what exactly I expect you all to do though, as alpha members if you know of a build that is working unintended or out of control I almost feel like you should report it.

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I know GGG has other methods to find builds then videos, but make no mistake that video had a larger impact on the build getting nerfed swiftly then anything else.

That's the difference. My builds get nerfed for major patches. A build that everyone falls in love with will be nerfed before the weekend. Both end up nerfed, not releasing the info doesn't prevent it.

See that is a misconception here, name the builds because it is VERY important in regards to the overall health of the game. Builds ele buzzsaw with aura nerfs, RF with those changes, ect all impacted a larger player base and needed time to wait. This specific build didn't you can't argue the power of the build and the intentions were never suppose to be this way. You say that is not an argument and I said it is, agree to disagree if you want.

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Moosifer wrote:

I don't care about your personal views on it, but it's clear over a while now that GGG doesn't fully flush everything out before releasing it and want to see if we can come up with new shit. Even obvious stuff. They are testing PVP, they release vengeance and allow it to be used with facebreakers. Wouldn't this be one of the first things tested to see if it's too strong? Nope, made it through, people show it's insane, gets nerfed. All of the things you listed could easily be changed so they are being used how intended. Like RF was adjusted so it wasn't as easily abused, they could have just removed the more spell damage mod making it used for only what it says at face value.

I also disagree with the 2nd point. If they did not want it being used, simply remove the thing that doesn't make sense, the minion having low life when it lands. It doesn't match how any other minion works, it doesn't have any other interaction with your life total, it gets the point across and you don't have to put in the DR alongside the life nerf to make it still usable as a decoy, so it's less work, more graceful, shows clear purpose that the interaction is not intended to be used. Instead they nerf it and claim it might still be OP. You don't leave something OP if you don't want it existing.

I know, man, said it myself some pages ago, I strongly suspect they don't test skills thoroughly enough and are counting on us to find potential abuses. After we find them they evaluate the impact it has on the game and choose one of three options:
- leave in unusable form
- remove completely
- leave in some usable form

First solution usually requires simple numerical tweaking so it's the fastest and safest. Second one can require recoding so it's possible to introduce further bugs or unwanted interactions and the last one requires extended testing.

I strongly suspect they went with the first one because they are busy and will go for second option once they have the leisure.

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goetzjam wrote:

No not making it personal you are only 1 of many alpha members, I understand a lot of testing went into PvP, but that shouldn't excuse the team from testing things like this. I don't know if this is a fail on alpha performance or the lack of leadership and assigned roles, but alpha hasn't fully tested quite a few things that would have been caught.

I am slightly torn on what exactly I expect you all to do though, as alpha members if you know of a build that is working unintended or out of control I almost feel like you should report it.

I have no idea what I can and can't say about alpha meta because of NDA. I will say it's dumb to lay any responsibility on us as it would be dumb for me to blame you for any unforeseen OP shit in the game. All you, us alpha members can do, is make suggestions, we aren't doing the coding. My suggestion in alpha will get more attention than your's on the forum but both can be equally ignored.

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See that is a misconception here, name the builds because it is VERY important in regards to the overall health of the game. Builds ele buzzsaw with aura nerfs, RF with those changes, ect all impacted a larger player base and needed time to wait. This specific build didn't you can't argue the power of the build and the intentions were never suppose to be this way. You say that is not an argument and I said it is, agree to disagree if you want.

I'm confused. Are you saying I have an OP build I'm holding back atm? I said it got nerfed in 1.3. Hell the backbone of it has been nerfed 3-4 times already, each time I've remade it. My point was the only difference between releasing the build or not is how long you get to enjoy it.