Petition to GGG: Overall Game Performance

Why is there the misconception that desync is only a problem if you die to it.

Do you have any idea how painfully bad desync makes the game LOOK? Monsters teleporting around on your screen. Your character teleporting around walls and objects.

I bet there is a substanial number of people who try PoE that discard it as garbage when things start warping around on their screen.

Didn't GGG once say that most players quit before normal Brutus? Why do you think that is? I'm not saying performance is the only reason but it is definitely a big one.

After reading some posts about desynch back in the day I'm somewhat sure it will always be there even if it's reduced in the future.

But I definitely agree that something should be done to improve performance.

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TGeorge wrote:

After reading some posts about desynch back in the day I'm somewhat sure it will always be there even if it's reduced in the future.

But I definitely agree that something should be done to improve performance.

From what I understood of the huge de-sync post mortem thread is that the horrible de-sync of PoE is the consequence of GGG's chosen cheat/hack prevention method. The method being that, the server-state is always correct.

I find it hard to believe, though, that in 2014 literally nothing can be done to fix this. It's either massive de-sync and no hacks/cheats...or no/minimal de-sync but rampant cheating/hacking? It can't be that black and white.

Things like the wharf docks map make me question what the crap is GGG thinking. The desynch there is horrible because of the map design. Mobs will desynch walking 5 feet to you over and over and over.

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inDef wrote:

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TGeorge wrote:

After reading some posts about desynch back in the day I'm somewhat sure it will always be there even if it's reduced in the future.

But I definitely agree that something should be done to improve performance.

From what I understood of the huge de-sync post mortem thread is that the horrible de-sync of PoE is the consequence of GGG's chosen cheat/hack prevention method. The method being that, the server-state is always correct.

I find it hard to believe, though, that in 2014 literally nothing can be done to fix this. It's either massive de-sync and no hacks/cheats...or no/minimal de-sync but rampant cheating/hacking? It can't be that black and white.

For some elements of the implementation, it being 2014 means nothing. Physics is physics. GGG has not found a way to increase the speed of light.

Trusting the client is always prone to exploit. To think otherwise is foolhearty and shreds the game experience for some....as does desync for others. Putting servers local to everyone is not cost effective.

Find a way to predict the future, exactly what is being attemptd here, and you will be rich forever.

Duplicate.

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Nubatron wrote:

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inDef wrote:

"

TGeorge wrote:

After reading some posts about desynch back in the day I'm somewhat sure it will always be there even if it's reduced in the future.

But I definitely agree that something should be done to improve performance.

From what I understood of the huge de-sync post mortem thread is that the horrible de-sync of PoE is the consequence of GGG's chosen cheat/hack prevention method. The method being that, the server-state is always correct.

I find it hard to believe, though, that in 2014 literally nothing can be done to fix this. It's either massive de-sync and no hacks/cheats...or no/minimal de-sync but rampant cheating/hacking? It can't be that black and white.

For some elements of the implementation, it being 2014 means nothing. Physics is physics. GGG has not found a way to increase the speed of light.

Trusting the client is always prone to exploit. To think otherwise is foolhearty and shreds the game experience for some....as does desync for others. Putting servers local to everyone is not cost effective.

Find a way to predict the future, exactly what is being attemptd here, and you will be rich forever.

Oh god, here we go.

De-sync is NOT the same thing as latency.

Everyone has latency. Latency is dependent on the rate at which the electromagnetic waves that make up your data packets are transmitted and received by the client/server. This data is transmitted at the speed of light.

De-sync is a disagreement between the client and server of what that data is. And in the case of PoE, the server-state is always correct and will re-sync your client as necessary (or you force a sync with /oos). This process has NOTHING to do with physics and all to do with software implementation.

So how is it that every online game that I've ever played has literally no or minimal de-sync in comparison to PoE? Can you imagine if you loaded up the next AAA MMORPG and mobs and other players were teleporting around on your screen...and the dev company said, "Sorry about that! But there's nothing we can do because we need to prevent hacks/cheats!".

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Nubatron wrote:

For some elements of the implementation, it being 2014 means nothing. Physics is physics. GGG has not found a way to increase the speed of light.

There are many online games out there, none of which trust the client, and none of them have desync issues as severe as PoE. Much can be achieved with better prediction and masking code, and, of course, you have to design an online game like an online game, not like a single-player game.

That is the core of the issue. The solution to desync starts with how hits, stuns, evades, and collisions are calculated. The issue with GGG in general is that they design the game in complete disregard of the limitations of both the engine and the medium.

If the engine and the architecture cannot handle certain mechanics, these mechanics need to go. Instead, GGG just adds MORE mechanics and content that are incompatible with the goal to reduce desync. As a result, we now have more desync than we did a year ago (or rather, we have more content that makes desync noticeable).

My sympathy ended when they added the 60% fleet mods and the fractured seawitches. Before that, I made all the same excuses: small indie company, limited resources, trying their best, etc. No, they are not trying their best. They ignore the problem and don't seem to have any apparent intention of improving the situation. And now we get beacons ...

I love it when people without a clue as to what they're talking about act like they know more than the people who are actually doing it. It's why I teach math, and why I love these forums.

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inDef wrote:

Oh god, here we go.

De-sync is NOT the same thing as latency.

Everyone has latency. Latency is dependent on the rate at which the electromagnetic waves that make up your data packets are transmitted and received by the client/server. This data is transmitted at the speed of light.

De-sync is a disagreement between the client and server of what that data is. And in the case of PoE, the server-state is always correct and will re-sync your client as necessary (or you force a sync with /oos). This process has NOTHING to do with physics and all to do with software implementation.

So how is it that every online game that I've ever played has literally no or minimal de-sync in comparison to PoE? Can you imagine if you loaded up the next AAA MMORPG and mobs and other players were teleporting around on your screen...and the dev company said, "Sorry about that! But there's nothing we can do because we need to prevent hacks/cheats!".

I'm thinking you are missing a fundamental piece of their implementation. Latency plays directly into desync. The client is guessing what is happening on the server while packets traverse the network. It cannot be verified until the data gets to server and actual server state is relayed back. If client is close, the client continues. If not, sync required.

Each frame that occurs on the client has the chance to get out of sync with the server. The number of frames that occur during the travel time between the server and the client increases as the packet transit time increases.

I think I'm the one that should be saying 'oh no, here we go again'. The development manifesto does a good job explaining exactly this concept. I'm only a satellite systems engineer, so me explaining it will leave much to be desired. The whole people skills from the 'Office Space'. :p

EDIT: Adding in thoughts from Mivo. The mechanics that can cause the major desyncs through a latent network could be a possible thing to examine if the problem is as prevalent as the forum makes it out to be. I happen to be on a nice rig in an well connected area in somewhat close proximity to the server (low latency, highly available, little network congestion) so I really do not see it like others do.

EDIT2: And just to beat a dead horse: the more latent the transport line is, even at the time of a resync..you may already be significantly out of sync with the server if something movement related occurs during that time period. Example: monster that charges during resync on server after the server state was sent to the client.