REFLECT IS STUPID!

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Natharias wrote:

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Shade_RU_N53 wrote:

Reflect is bad because it dictates how exactly my character should be built.

Let's use your bad logic for a bit:

Spoiler

First off, builds require capped resistances in order to survive. So resistances and elemental damage are bad in the first place. So elemental damage limits build diversity.

Second, there is physical damage which requires armor, Lightning Coil, Granite flasks, and other such defenses to mitigate it. That limits diversity even more.

Then you have spells, which don't have accuracy. This makes evasion completely useless.

Then you have knockback, and the Knockback support gem, which make all melee enemies and builds useless. Easy win for any ranged build is to simply use some kind of knockback and all melee builds are useless. Should we then remove Knockback for the same reason you wish to remove reflect?

We should also remove Corrupted Blood, then. Why should I use a flask slot to remove CB charges? That's like asking me to get enough leech and resistances to counter elemental reflect. That's too much!

See how flawed your logic is?

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post since it's likely using the same flawed logic.

OK, let's use my logic.

Builds require capped res because of the desync, which is a problem and not a feature, and reflect which is being discussed. Both make you suffer hits that would not be taken through ordinary game mechanics -- for example, chain is mitigated with additional targets like minions while AOE and projectiles can be dodged.

Phys dam has the same trait of not limiting anything for the reason stated above -- it can be avoided just as well as it can be tanked.

Spells add greatly to the diversity by adding whole new playstyles. Instead of chance to hit they have flat DR through res -- and they can be dodged manually. Although CtH and saving throws for spells would definitely add a new layer of complexity for this game.

As for the knockback case, I do not fathom how knockback gem would make melee build useless -- these still do damage before knocking back. And it adds to the diversity when you can knock back targets with both ranged and melee attacks, esp. AoE like Ground Slam.

As for the CB -- it's a good question. Perhaps it, too, should be removed since there's only one way around it (a flask).

Thus, sir, I see that you have perverted my logic to a point where it would not be a logic but some ravings, and try to prove something with the results. You have achieved some success -- I see how flawed the logic you've made your case with. But it has nothing to do with my logic you tried to discuss.

Also, you still did not clear the origins of that "full idea of reflect" you were talking about. Did you just make it up to cover current game mechanics in question? That would explain "wontreadwontthinkwontanswer" line from you just perfectly.

And before you answer, think of this -- this game allows complex mechanics like free projectiles (as opposed to the target-system which makes projectiles ignore all the objects except the one it is bound for at the moment of release), motion blocking objects and such. Making characters facetank damage moves this game closer to ordinary target-baased MMO-like games where you should not play a game of position, just maintain balance between taken and replenished damage. Devs definitely cam make some target-based online grinder from this game -- but when they have so much more, why would they? The reflect mechanic is bad for this reason as well.

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DirkAustin wrote:

Well said. In fact there is a mod for D2, Median XL, there was some OP arrow that could pierce level walls which translates to you shooting in all directions and killing stuff 9000 screens over.

Reflect is there to make players aware of their environment. Dont see the aura? Bad for you because you spammed too much AOE off screen. Its a tactical thing that should be removed at all ever. Hell, they reduced it already so if they reduce it again its bye bye POE because then we can just as well call this game Diablo 4.

Perhaps the cases like the mod you mentioned should not be at all? Perhaps if they are not in place, there would not be a necessity to implement additional mechaincs (reflect) that would stop them from being abused? I dare think, perhaps these are not present in PoE as of current and not need to be mitigated in such a grotesque way at the first place?

As for the rest: it's good your toons don't spam offscreen AOE, I get that. Now if you would just leave the rest of the sorry losers in this thread who do have this problem to their discussion, I guess everyone would be happier. For us, instaselfgib = not fun, and we experience it (well, I do not now, but before having 2x Seething Flasks I did too). If for you our sufferings are fun, perhaps it would be more healthy for everyone if you just practised on your local cats or something, just not here.

Offscreen seems to be the crux of the complaint. Didn't see the reflect so killed myself.

So if you limit yourself to only attacking things on the screen, you should never die to reflect. Physical Reflect - use an elemental attack. Elemental reflect - use a physical attack (even spell casters have Ethereal Knives that do Physical damage, so that can't be used as an excuse).

One trick ponies are frowned upon by the devs. Reflect makes sure you either use an alternate method of delivering damage or use one of several ways to mitigate it. Immortal Call gives you physical Immunity. purity Auras give you additional max resists. Flasks can give you additional max resists, Armour, and Evasion.you can even roll Evasion flasks to give you Armour and Armour Flasks to give you evasion.

Calling reflect a bad mechanic or lazy programming is kinda the pot calling the kettle black when you're too lazy to be bothered to use one of the many ways to deal with it.

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xonedl wrote:

Whatever it is I think there should be more clearer visual indication when reflect mob is in place. Rather than just a tiny text label that I actually need to hover on the mob to see.
I caught off guard several times, not knowing reflect mob is in place and land my vaal stormcall... GG. Not the direct reflect boss, but "allies gain elemental reflect" things like that. If I was using normal attack I will quickly aware about it, but Vaal Stormcall = 99% insta GG.

I'm not blaming the game, but I do think it's better to have different visual indication for different mods, still there are room for improvements.

I avoid elemental reflect map completely with my current Arc character...
But recently I got a 5 link chest and added extra life leech gem, maybe I can test if that 18% reflect still hurts or not ;3

So you play this game without looking?

The aura effect that reflect mobs use is blatantly obvious. If you can't see it, I suggest you visit the eye doctor.

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TikoXi wrote:

Fun fact, I run Herald of Ice too, which adds somewhere in 50-100 cold damage into the mix iirc with my current build. at 14 casts pre second, that's an abysmal amount of damage which isn't mitigated by Arctic Armor and benefits wholly from incinerates 300% damage increase at max stacks.
Yea...that's a lot of incoming cold damage too. That god Chaos doesn't get reflected, or I'd be in the shitter.

This is why I use Incinerate + GMP + Spell Echo + Fire Penetration + Iron Will + Faster Projectiles/Faster Casting. It's almost all fire damage and it's easily mitigated.

Sure I'd get higher DPS against non-resistant mobs using Added Damage gems, but the above setup does more damage against bosses and resistant enemies. It also does almost no reflect damage.

My Herald of Ice is low level, so I haven't had reflect become a problem from that. It's about level ten iirc.

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TikoXi wrote:

I would like to point out that literally everything you just said can be taken, and has been iterated on in other threads if not earlier in this one, as a negative.

Huh?

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GsNaits wrote:

You say I just need to look for auras, but if I find a room filled with auras and totems then there is a lot to look for. I don't like the idea of slowing down and looking at everything before I start killing.

You don't need to stop. The reflect aura is unique, and if you know what it looks like there is nothing else in this game that can be confused with it.

If there are any other effects, you should ignore them. So what if there are twenty rares with totally different mods? Just look for the one that is problematic.

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GsNaits wrote:

Often when playing self-cast I throw a spell in a room and see if I take damage rather than look at everything, because looking at everything is no fun. In a game like this I want to make the most effective build possible and slay some enemies. Stopping that just makes me want to play something else, like a summoner.

That's just poor playing. I don't pay attention to anything except the reflect that I do and Corrupted Blood. Even Storm Herald isn't a problem.

So two things are a lot to look for? Hmm. Not sure if bad or if trolling.

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GsNaits wrote:

If a player want to build a really tanky character and clear everything with little risk, then that is fine.
Players should have the option to make a glass cannon type of build and risk everything when facing hard bosses, exiles, strongboxes, devourers or some other mob that teleport or flicker strikes without having to worry about this type of mechanic. It is like people say. This is limiting players in what they can do in the game.

There is nothing stopping you from making a glass cannon. But let me ask you something:

Aren't glass cannons supposed to die? Hence their name?

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GsNaits wrote:

Everyone takes every possible defensive node, gets high ES or life on gear instead of damage because there is no other option.

No, because they don't want to die and lose progress.

I'd rather clear with the acceptable 20k DPS than die using 35k DPS. 15k DPS to make sure I'm not dying? Hell yes I'd rather get that life.

implementation of reflect in poe is just dumb & doesnt provide any skillful gameplay & isnt fun (this is a game it should be fun right?)
lets see how other games deal with this...
WoW there r bosses that use reflect occasionally & tell you that & everyone stop dps or they die. thats fun & skillful gameplay.
Guild Wars 2 : i stopped playing this game after i encountered Guardian with my trickster rogue & i dodged everything he throw at me he did exactly no damage to me with anything except reflect that killed me from 100% hp. thats NOT fun.
Dota theres item blademail that has a 17 sec cooldown & 4.5 seconds duration & it gives a clear vision that its used & on high mmr u cant hope to deal much damage with it becouse people are aware & they stop when they see it. Thats skillful & fun.

PoE: well you all know what its like here theres no skill involved & it isnt fun to encounter it is there just to block your builds that u made (why is there a chain skill? why is there split shot? maybe why is there reflect a better question?)and prevent u from upgrading your gear becouse theres certain level of damage that will kill you.

2 MMOS and a MOBA compared to PoE...apples and oranges there bud. But lets for a moment take a look at the WoW one. Yes they tell you its there in WoW...in PoE..they oh wait they tell you its there either with a freaking aura or in the mods on the map/mob.

As for your Guildwars 2 example you think you dodging everything of his was fun for him? I doubt it but he found a way to still kill you that is good gameplay and not rock paper scissors.

Again I have yet to have an issue with reflect mobs on any of the builds I have made. There is however one common issue that just about all of the people who dislike reflect share...and that is the hitting it off screen. So maybe a better solution, instead of just taking out something that not everyone is having issues with, would be to either make it so auras don't activate until mobs are on screen or something similar, or you know just make it so that projectiles fizzle after so far.

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Zeshin wrote:

2 MMOS and a MOBA compared to PoE...apples and oranges there bud. But lets for a moment take a look at the WoW one. Yes they tell you its there in WoW...in PoE..they oh wait they tell you its there either with a freaking aura or in the mods on the map/mob.

As for your Guildwars 2 example you think you dodging everything of his was fun for him? I doubt it but he found a way to still kill you that is good gameplay and not rock paper scissors.

Again I have yet to have an issue with reflect mobs on any of the builds I have made. There is however one common issue that just about all of the people who dislike reflect share...and that is the hitting it off screen. So maybe a better solution, instead of just taking out something that not everyone is having issues with, would be to either make it so auras don't activate until mobs are on screen or something similar, or you know just make it so that projectiles fizzle after so far.

difference in poe is they tell you when its there... its permanently there no brain no skill like that guardian in gw2
also D2 had iron maiden & they removed it...and its nowhere near PoE level in D3... and no one was complaing about not having it only about it being still too strong...and then they changed it to this

"The Reflects Damage affix has been redesigned:

It will now apply a short duration buff to the monster and will only reflect a percentage of damage dealt back to the player while that buff is active.
A visual effect will display whenever the durational buff is active."

i wounder why... maybe permanent passive reflect that kills you is a bad mechanic?

Torchlight 2 also does not have it & no1 complains about lack of reflect.

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"Shade_RU_N53 wrote:

Builds require capped res because of the desync

8/10 troll. You had me going.

fanboys? most of the white knights defending a broken and shitty mechanic here are outright trolling. despicable