Daggers too OP

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Zigma999 wrote:

I'm done with this thread not to be a dick but everyone is in their alpha mindset and not the omega.

wtf am i reading

do you eat lots of soy by any chance?

actually, there is a lot of sense in what LSN is saying here.

the 700k dps guy (I_NO) who argues that everything is fine is either an idiot or he actully RMTed for his/her stuff that would explain his/her opposition to nerfing the build based on crit. it does really look kind of weird that having such highend gear his highest level is 91 only. it is somewhat likely that he/she might have been mfing for the last 18 months or perhaps he is such a bad player that gets constantly killed and loses xp so he can't progress over level 91. we can't be sure, but it looks kind of suspicious when we take all of the above into account.

but anyway, this is not a subject of this thread.

let's talk about daggers.

i have 2 chars in standard i played the most.
one is 2-h GS/HS marauder and the other is low life crit ST dagger scion.
2-h one is my favourite, played it 90% of the time solo, getting to 96. b/c a big melee guy is what i love to play with.
but once the atziri expansion came out, after a month or two, when i realized a normal atziri is the maximum i can reach with a melee life-based non-crit build, i started slowly building a dagger ST char in order to be able to try uber. when i finally completed the build (acquired all necessary items) it was too late to gain any profit from running it and i also obviously sucked because i wasn't able to defeat uber and not rich enough to afford to buy required fragments to try her long enough to finally down her.

the point i'm trying to make is that the disbalance between a 2-h life-based char and low life crit ST was so huge, and b/c i always was a powergamer to certain extent, i was forced to switch to the most OP build to be able to reach the very highend content of this game.
having just a 310 pdps dagger i could reach 60-70k dps in comparison to my mirror 2-h mace (818 pdps) marauder who maxed at about 25k in groundslam and 40k in heavy strike.
you can check the gear i had in this thread (http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1043479) and as you can see the investment into each char is more or less the same, even if some of the prices listed there are little off.
to also illustrate how imbalanced it was, with my 310 dps dagger i cleared alluring abyss blue mobs about 3-4 times faster than i did with my marauder.

now if you compare the numbers of best mirrored 2-h mace with a best mirrored dagger, the imbalance is even stronger.
the dagger is about 555 dps, 2.0 aps and 10% crit chance while the 2-h mace is 818 dps, 1.58 aps and 5%CC.
the 2-h mace has only 47% more pdps, but has twice as less crit chance and is about 28% slower than the dagger. and if that is not enough, you can wield a fucking shiled with a dagger that can have a fuckton of ES/resist/spell damage/block and if you gear appropriately you can also have spell block!

so, anyone who claims that daggers are fine as they are, is either an idiot, or completely clueless about game balance and simple math, or does prefer the current status b/c he fears that his RMTed gear will lose value if the nerf/change hits his OP build.

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k4n3 wrote:

having just a 310 pdps dagger i could reach 60-70k dps in comparison to my mirror 2-h mace (818 pdps) marauder who maxed at about 25k in groundslam and 40k in heavy strike
so, anyone who claims that daggers are fine as they are, is either an idiot, or completely clueless about game balance and simple math, or does prefer the current status b/c he fears that his RMTed gear will lose value if the nerf/change hits his OP build.

This is harsh truth of poe

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k4n3 wrote:

having just a 310 pdps dagger i could reach 60-70k dps in comparison to my mirror 2-h mace (818 pdps) marauder who maxed at about 25k in groundslam and 40k in heavy strike

so, anyone who claims that daggers are fine as they are, is either an idiot, or completely clueless about game balance and simple math, or does prefer the current status b/c he fears that his RMTed gear will lose value if the nerf/change hits his OP build.

This is the harsh truth of poe

daggers are not OP...
what is OP is critical strike

crit has increased damage (which is RPG logic)
but crit also gives insta elemental status...huge buff
also gives faster potions replenishment

Sometimes i am amused by a lot of gamer's mentality.

I have been a very competitive player for years but PoE is one of the games i dont feel like i need to be competitive in, unless you like to compare the length of your e-peen.

When i say competitive, i am leaning towards the PvP aspect of the games, whether it is an MMOROG or MMOFPS. Thats when i care more about balance between players and class/builds.

But for PoE, i only care about what i enjoy playing. so what if another player does 1 mil more dps than i do? What if there are builds far more superior than mine?

I either suck it up, play what i like or i just go ahead and build another char around the OP gears/builds. So what if another person clears faster than i do? I just sit back and leech, doesnt really affect me.

I have been playing this game on and off for the past couple years, since OBT matter of fact and i have witnessed what this game has truly become after all the years of whining.

block builds too op! ES too op! life sucks! Spell block too op! shavs too op! snapshot too op! and GGG tend to "balance" things around these negativity instead of balancing the game altogether. Buffing builds/gears that have been left behind would be a better solution than nerfing others.

Keep in mind, the so called 400k-1mil dps build will only work in non hardcore leagues, if they are to balance things they need to balance it so both servers will benefit from it.

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Sexcalibure wrote:

daggers are not OP...
what is OP is critical strike

crit has increased damage (which is RPG logic)
but crit also gives insta elemental status...huge buff
also gives faster potions replenishment

No, you're wrong.

It is true, that for a lot of skills (especially spells), there just isnt another option but crit because of the lack of "more" multipliers.

But the main problem of crit ARE those insanely OP 9-10% base crit chance high end weapons (daggers, but also bows - wands also have such a high bas crit chance, but much less dmg).

Use e.g. a sword or a 5-6% crit spell, enough crit nodes and you will have proper DPS. Like e.g. A freezing pulse or crit EK build.
Use one of those daggers or Harbinger bows with 10% base crit and up to 500 dmg per hit and 1.6+ APS you'll get 4 times the dps with the same amout of skillpoints spent.

The only way to solve this problem is:
1. nerf those high base crit chance weapons (but only the top tier rolls)
2. nerf crit flask mods
3. implement more multipliers wich dont work with crit

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Puraime wrote:

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

Daggers quite simply deal too much base damage given their crit potential. The whole idea of a dagger being an effective weapon is in the 'all or nothing' philosophy: either it grazes the skin or it severs an artery. Crits simulate these 'direct, perfect hits' for which daggers are renowned.

There is no way a dagger should have equal 'damage output' to a zweihander or battleaxe *without* this crit potential. And it's way too easy to get high crit chance right now.

That said, I don't think anyone really cared that much until certain other factors came into play, notably shit like COCS and Spectral Throw. You had Invalesco's dagger build of the week and it hardly made a splash, despite being an absolute beast.

That is because game was close to launch of open beta and....
1.in early game it was all about survival
2.ES gears were too expensive to be considered nice. (hence why marauders and templars were popular back then).
3. Shav's wasn't around that time.
4. crown of eyes wasn't around that time.
5. not many people cared about block builds that time.
6.It also takes a lot to use end game daggers as you have to have gears to support your dps ( dealing with reflect mostly).
7. Elemental builds were more popular that time compared to physical builds.

Still bino's kitchen knife and spectral throw is what really shaped the pop culture of what you speak of.

I think you are both correct , however did you guys ever play Invalesco's dagger build back in the day ? it was fucking balls to the walls INSANE !!!!!!

P.S. still trying to get a decent lightning strike/flicker strike set up working again it was just so much fun. Like CoC but with 100 % control and pinpoint DPS placment ( o and 1 shoting rare mobs just can't be beat )

Daggers don't even compare to Void Battery CoC AKA Shatter Chuck that can reach 2 million dps.