Forsaken Craft: You've sort of broken your game GGG

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tmaciak wrote:

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That's just ridiculous.

Some find ridiculous 1 mln DPS builds in game, where average player struggles to pass 15-20K DPS. If such disparity is possible, game will never have any balance, especially that devs insist to make high level players life harder, what completely shits on average player.

You want a casual player / average player to be able to somehow get mirrored god tier gear which enables 1 mil DPS +? Or what? A fucking number alone makes people emo like look at that shit guy has given up lol


And most of these 1m+ DPS builds are in fucking standard out of all things lol have they forgotten they don't balance around that league? Have they? Or are they just too broken to realize it.

you are missing the point entirely though , it is not that he got to 1 million , its that he got to 1 million and no other build has. if i could roll a million dps minion build or a million dps no crit 2 hand build or a million dps non crit wand build or anything provided i have the best gear imaginable ... then that would be one thing.

But the fact of life is that you cant. You cant get to 1 million with a non crit build. not possible, not even close.


and sure there are no 1 million dpsers in the new leagues. but there are 100ks , 200ks 300ks

you dont need mirror gear to totally burn game balance to the ground and piss on its ashes .


all you need to do is stack crit multi and crit chance and game balance goes out the window.

And since almost everyone and their grandmother is doing it this league , your argument that there is some mythical gear wall that keeps things like this from happening is completely false.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

you are missing the point entirely though , it is not that he got to 1 million , its that he got to 1 million and no other build has. if i could roll a million dps minion build or a million dps no crit 2 hand build or a million dps non crit wand build or anything provided i have the best gear imaginable ... then that would be one thing.

But the fact of life is that you cant. You cant get to 1 million with a non crit build. not possible, not even close.


and sure there are no 1 million dpsers in the new leagues. but there are 100ks , 200ks 300ks

you dont need mirror gear to totally burn game balance to the ground and piss on its ashes .


all you need to do is stack crit multi and crit chance and game balance goes out the window.

And since almost everyone and their grandmother is doing it this league , your argument that there is some mythical gear wall that keeps things like this from happening is completely false.

I'll just post it again here, from another thread:

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Peterlerock wrote:

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GodKas wrote:

Right who cares 2H dps 30k+
while crit daggers 300k to 1000k+

I achieve 25k DpS with a 300DpS sword in a max block/spellblock BoR Resolute Technique build with mediocre gear.
If I had a mirrored sword and some other better stuff, this would already be about 50k DpS. In a super-defensive build.
If I took a bit of crit as well and reduced my shield block defensive stuff and wear an Abyssus, I could probably double that number again. To about 100k DpS (for a non-dagger/claw/sceptre 1h+shield build).

Currently I'm playing a dualwield crit sword marauder. I have two swords with about 300DpS, a 5L non 20q non maxlevel main attack and am not even running Hatred or using Abyssus, 45k DpS
Again, give me a 6L, Hatred, a couple more levels, better gear, Abyssus and two mirrored swords, you're looking at a double-double-double DpS party, bringing it up to at least 200k DpS, I guess.
(the only difference to a dagger build: he has 95% crit, I have 60%, so he'll do about 50% more damage)

With a twohanded build (non staff), you'll cap out at around 200k DpS, I guess, if you really want and have mirror tier gear.
Here's a thread with a 112k DpS Double Strike (mirrored axe and other expensive stuff).
I don't even like his skilltree too much, but it's fine enough.
Let him remove his bm gem for a 20/20 "melee damage on full life" gem and give him 21/20 or 20/23 gems, and he'll probably sit at about 160k "screenshot DpS".
With a staff, it's probably a bit higher, though I'm not a huge fan of the staff nodes and their location in the tree.

Dagger builds cap out at about 300k DpS.
The pictures with 1Mio DpS are purely for Epeen comparison, buffed up with Headhunter belt and Aura supports. This is not how they are actually playing.

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Yes, Daggers are op.
This game has no crit multi limit, no attack speed limit and also your crit chance is only capped at 95% (which is ridiculous).
Daggers benefit more from the game mechanic of multiplying "more damage" numbers repeatedly.
Twohanders do not.
So yes, there is an imbalance.

But stop this bullshit with "2h builds only do 30k DpS, daggers do 1 million".

Get the numbers right.

To get 300k DpS with a reasonable survivability and AoE, we are already talking mirror tier equipment.
This "1mio DpS" is a screenshot that means nothing at all.

With mirror tier items, it's probably like:
1h axe/sword/mace without crit: 50k+
1h axe/sword/mace with crit: 100k DpS+
dualwield without crit: 100k+
dualwield: 200k+
dagger 1h: 300k+
dagger dualwield: 400k+
Twohanded: 200k+
Staff: 300k+

Imbalanced, but not like "holy shit he's doing 10.000 times more damage!".

My my there's the challenger :O B Rabbit

This is what's ruining the game...

Base + flat phys + %phys + %phys/Acc = WAAAAY too much disparity between high & low end. Fix that & you will fix the problems highlighted by the FM's.

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Peterlerock wrote:

The pictures with 1Mio DpS are purely for Epeen comparison, buffed up with Headhunter belt and Aura supports. This is not how they are actually playing.

Well, not quite.

That particular 1 mill dps SS might have had some 'artificial' help, but the build in question, with the gear does 100k+ GMP as its general self buffed 'this is how I run'. With that GMP set up in a 6L, your accompanying 4L single target is going to be pushing 500k. Now, probably for show, the single target is swapped to the 6 link and another 2 supports added, add in Vaal Haste (which is probably kept up 100% normally in the GMP set up with increased duration) and we are self buffed 1 million single target.

Yeah, there's some artificial inflation of sorts, but really, this guy (and many others) could show you a legit, self buffed, GMP 6 link and Single target 4 link shot that would in all intents and purposes have the same wow factor to the masses. And this would be the actual, self buffed, sustaining, safe, dps figures they crush the game with.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

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you are missing the point entirely though , it is not that he got to 1 million , its that he got to 1 million and no other build has. if i could roll a million dps minion build or a million dps no crit 2 hand build or a million dps non crit wand build or anything provided i have the best gear imaginable ... then that would be one thing.

But the fact of life is that you cant. You cant get to 1 million with a non crit build. not possible, not even close.


and sure there are no 1 million dpsers in the new leagues. but there are 100ks , 200ks 300ks

you dont need mirror gear to totally burn game balance to the ground and piss on its ashes .


all you need to do is stack crit multi and crit chance and game balance goes out the window.

And since almost everyone and their grandmother is doing it this league , your argument that there is some mythical gear wall that keeps things like this from happening is completely false.

Im pretty sure a Animate Weapon/ SRS summoner easily tops 1 mil dps. With leveling gear.

Numerical dps is meaningless, what does matter is clear speed and nothing can trump crit builds due to crit and low life being a poorly balanced mechanic, dispersal power of gmp+chain (or ST) and now, the ease of obtaining tier 1 crit based weapons.

No build should be able to one shot everything in a 6 man 78 map.

Theres no denying the crits are where its at for the astronomical tooltips, absolutely no doubt.


I'm gonna come in here though slightly on the side of Peterlerock and talk about my experience using a variety of weapon bases in very similar builds. I make very defensive characters, what I feel are very balanced characters. For my money Ranger is the best life based 1 handed melee start on the tree. I build most 1 handed melees along the same sort of lines, I use a Coil (opop), acro/phase, ondars and some block. Now I've made builds like this with a lot of different base weapons, and honestly I get roughly the same dps from crit daggers, crit claws, flat damage claws, flat damage swords etc starting with roughly the same dps weapons. People talk about how op dagger nodes are, but they dont get anywhere near the same amount of %phs and attack speed as say swords when you invest the same amount of points in damage.

In a balanced build its a lot more even than people give the game credit for. My Dragon Hunger mirrored dagger life based ranger gets about 65k dps in a 6 link? If you gave me claws, swords etc with those same rolls I am pretty sure Id be getting somewhere in the 60k zone while getting the same amount of life, defenses etc. I know from using lower tier daggers that swords and claws, non crit, I get roughly the same dps from simillar rolls. Maybe the crit specs will edge it slightly, say 26k dps rather than 23 or 24, but the gap is small.

could I build a 6 figure dps spec with my dagger? Of course, the potential is there to scale it stupid high its an absolute monster and crit is ridiculous. But in a balanced build that is spending roughly the same amount of points in each area its a different story. Look at Poutsos earlier, hes got a sick flicker dagger spec, getting 280k dps with a dagger thats virtually the same as mine. But he says he has trouble staying alive in hard rolled high level maps, needs acuities etc. Whats my ci witch dagger deeps with the hunger? About 57k, something like that, but I got no atziri gloves and my spec can run phys + ele reflect maps with any mods outside of blood magic and still attack phys reflect packs in the maps, never dies, clears so quickly. So what level of survivability are you giving up to get these figures on dagger builds? Sure some of these crit builds are super super tanky, but I feel in like for like specs looking at balanced builds the gap in deeps numbers is just not that big, Peterlerock has some very valid points.

Wands are something else entirely, its impossible to really compare a wander with melee builds when it comes to tooltips etc, its not like daggers v swords where the builds, skills, gem setups etc can be matched very closely. And sure, wands can do outrageous damage. Personally Im ok with it, again a lot of these wanders are masking a lot of fragility behind nuke cannon deeps etc, I think thats a fun way to play and I really dont have a problem with it being in the game.

Solution:

Final damage =
Base damage * attribute damage bonus percentage
+Base Damage * Skill Damage percentage
+Base Damage * Passive Tree bonuses
+Base Damage * critical strike 1 or 0 * Critical damage percentage

...

Nothing scales of anything else.

just some food for thought here regarding some of the discussions weve had in this thread and some info Ive come across today from watching the streams.


Regarding KGs dagger, according to hege it took him about 300 alts, so his rampage dagger is actually probably significantly cheaper than his ambush dagger... yeah....


Regarding dps, was watching Ghazzy, his summon spirits build is running at 12.75 million dps, he believes its the highest dps build in the game, watching him take atziri from half health to 0 in literally a few seconds I believe him. so much for crits, daggers and wands being dps other builds cant get, summoners = 10x the dps of bis dagger and wand builds.... yeah...


on a note, I think we ran this thread into the ground, just putting that out there for the infos, not trying to respark this debate I feel like were done here, cheers, and thanks to all who contributed to the thread for and against, much love.