So i did the first Uber atziri as 2h melee[recorded it], my feedback.

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

Of course it was tested. It was just tested with a much smaller user base than, say, 50k+ players.

If anything reveals the nature of PoE as GGG's first effort, it's in their inability to balance things for the masses with very limited testing capabilities.

Do not confuse this for 'not tested at all'. That is foolish.

Really. Feel free to make another thread about it. I'm done. Victor's achievement is the point here.

It would have taken 5 minutes to figure out that half the shit that was broken was literally broken in both Invasion and Beyond. It doesn't take 50,000 people to figure out that Frostwall one shotting people at level 5 was totally normal.

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

Of course it was tested. It was just tested with a much smaller user base than, say, 50k+ players.

If anything reveals the nature of PoE as GGG's first effort, it's in their inability to balance things for the masses with very limited testing capabilities.

Do not confuse this for 'not tested at all'. That is foolish.

Really. Feel free to make another thread about it. I'm done. Victor's achievement is the point here.

Testing is what it is called when the changes are done in minor increments because the initial product was close enough to the desired end product target that it was almost but not quite there (before that was the design phase). You don't balance anything with numbers that are a multiple of the number itself. The numbers themselves should pretty much tell you what to aim for as long as there is a coherent strategy on what those numbers need to be. Anything beyond a single digit percent change (to very low double digit percent) shows that a major problem exists because there is no agreed upon balance target.

What we get here though are numbers so far above or so far below that targeted balance that it would almost be as close to just randomly roll them with dice. We get increases of 800% in a skill's power, reductions of 90%, one shot kills changed to being harmless, and harmless mobs changed to deal one shot kills, and so in in a kneejerk cycle that appears almost random in what is targeted and how it is dealt with to be blunt.


What is lacking isn't the testing, but rather an issue with the very concepts of what they want to design the game to be.

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

<...>A little time spent trying to think as GGG would think would do some people here a lot of good<...>

I tried to do that when they upped the map fleet mod from ~25% to ~35%, I tried as hard as I could to think as a GGG dev who were at that time telling the community they were working on improving desync. Try as a might, I couldn't for the life of me justify doing that nor work out what or how the fuck they were thinking. I now take Zana missions in Forsaken Masters and find 60% fleet mods and the most ridiculous desync I've ever seen, I dare not try to think like them this time, my head might just explode.

@ charan

The problem is that the testers who did it, for some reason thought this seemed fine, i just cant understand how anyone could think balance is okay, when in the game a 10 exa bow build on a 5l clears ubers as fast as a 2h build in 600 exa of gear.

And thinking as GGG, thats kind of hard to do since there a lot of people working there, who knows what differences in opinions about balancing X thing go around the office, but i can say, like anu, i tried doing it, when they released ST.. i mean.. Really? Someone there had the idea to make melee into ranged.. fuck me...


Anyway, i kinda wanted this thread and that video to help draw attention to 2h melee and maybe get it buffed, but i dont mind talking about the testing team on GGG since they might read the thread and maybe try to improve that area seeing how most of the stuff thats OP or underpowered is usually like that because it wasnt tested enough.

Trying to balance any build based on uber atziri is beyond silly. She's not balanced period and is meant to be a forever challenging boss. She's the response to overgeared standard characters. Melee by nature have a much harder with dodging which is what a budget uber Atziri kill would depend on. Her design still gives room to be fully mitigated through high movement which is nice.

Your constant 10 exa example is just someone who dodged everything Atziri did. If you dodged everything then you can do the same with your build. Someone has posted another relatively cheap melee build that did it with viperstrike. Someone else did her with lightning strike. Both depended on dodging everything(and I mean everything).

I actually want 2 hand to get buffs but definitely not based on this encounter.

Nothing about three dragons is unbalanced. Main uses of three dragons has actually been in a huge downward spiral as of the latest expansion(mainly less shock uses, now more burn focus).

For shocking: Shocking was extremely popular since lightning spells universally sucked and fire spells had the highest crit/base damage. With arc and ball lightning being powerful choices now and triple shock no longer being possible it's no longer a big deal. Previously you could triple shock instantly with a LMP fireball crit since each fireball would do a shock stack but that's no longer the case.

Incinerate/flame totem shocking through static blows/crit is still ok but nothing special. Only the crit flame totem version is actually useful against rares.

For freezing: Rarely used and very niche. Mainly gives interesting possibilities.

For burning: Icespear is possible but not better than firetrap and flameblast. Burning arrow is now a very viable choice which directly competes with iceshot. Luckily both result in very different kinds of builds usually and the former does way better for fullburn noncrit variations.

Rest of possibilities with three dragons are niche and more interesting uses. I'm honestly surprised for your hate of it when all it does is open up possibilities and interesting combinations. It's powerful in the sense of being versatile but is no where near being unbalanced. All it has done is create new viable builds and boost less used skills(like fireball, iceshot, flametotem)

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

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VictorDoom wrote:

@ charan

The problem is that the testers who did it, for some reason thought this seemed fine, i just cant understand how anyone could think balance is okay, when in the game a 10 exa bow build on a 5l clears ubers as fast as a 2h build in 600 exa of gear.

And thinking as GGG, thats kind of hard to do since there a lot of people working there, who knows what differences in opinions about balancing X thing go around the office, but i can say, like anu, i tried doing it, when they released ST.. i mean.. Really? Someone there had the idea to make melee into ranged.. fuck me...


Anyway, i kinda wanted this thread and that video to help draw attention to 2h melee and maybe get it buffed, but i dont mind talking about the testing team on GGG since they might read the thread and maybe try to improve that area seeing how most of the stuff thats OP or underpowered is usually like that because it wasnt tested enough.

Spoiler

Glad you like the video dude :)

As you wish, VD.

Please note that not at any point have I said I think their attempts at balance were successful. My vitriol towards ST, Molten Strike, certain uniques that rhyme with Pee Wagons and that old chestnut IR is as strong today as ever.

I can tell you that there is a handful of QA staffers. It's not enough but I do think it's better than forcing playtesting on people who are more suited to, say, designing tilesets or making sure the code works.

I wish the 2h issue could be resolved, but I'm afraid I've seen too many cockups to have much faith in that regard. Either the train flew off the rails long ago *or* my idea of the destination has failed to keep up with GGG's.

I choose to believe the latter, because the former just leads to despair, despair and more despair.

edit: I agree with kasub that Uber Titziri should not be a watermark for balance. She was put in for the best of the best of the best, which in a game like this often means 'those willing to do whatever it takes'. I maintain that balance should first be concerned with the core game, then maps, then optional bosses. Of course, most forum users seem to think that Maps deserve the lion's share of balance, but I am fairly sure that there's a quiet but large percentage out there who concern themselves with the core game first and foremost. Do try to remember what Chris said about Maps: somewhere around 1% of all characters even get to one.

Aye i know that well i read your posts mate, i know we both feel the same away on many aspects of the game, especially ST *tries to contain hatred*...

Obiviously it would be pretty riidculous to tell russel to start testing builds when hes the art guy, but i also did not know theyre that short on staff, thats really the problem with the view i have of the testing, i have no idae how well theyre doing in the staff area, they might ne be able to hire more testers which leads to problems like this, but they cant really spend all of their funds on making sure every single build is capable of everything, ive realized..

I honestly dont think balance is doomed, they can do it, i know they can cause theyre really fucking good at making games, they just need more time and a bigger staff, they have learned from past mistakes and they have changed the game drastically since closed beta, its a LOT more balanced now in my opinion. I know that a fair amount of CB members say that it was balanced then, but thats just the nostalgia talking and we all know it, cause ive said that too, it just wasnt, at all. 100% increased ele damage with catalyze? 1-200 lightning damage at level 27{wakes}?Casting auras on youre offhand slot and them remaining to your normal weapon? 100% crit chance Diamond flasks? thats not balance lol.

I also agree that uber should not be the point from which they balance the game, but i do talk about it because it is the hardest thing a character can do, which truly shows how characters compare to each other, they kill the same enemies in the same map, this means you can see which character is substantially weaker/stronger than others.

As the maps thing Chris said, i dont really believe that, 1% is way too low, like riduclously low, look at the standard ladder, the 15.000th spot has a level 88 character on it, now imagine how long youd have to go until you reach level 65, the level where usually most people start maps, ofc there are a lot more characters from 1-65 but i do not believe that all of the charactes that do maps are 1 % of the playerbase because that would equate in... a pretty much insane amount of players. Keep in mind that Chris also said that it will take years to reach level 100, people now do it in like a month, he just underestimated how good some players are and how much time theyre prepared to invest in the game, i would have honestly said the same thing since i would have never expected anyone to reach level 100 like they do now.


Kasub, i think the post above about three dragons is for another thread haha

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I agree with kasub that Uber Titziri should not be a watermark for balance. She was put in for the best of the best of the best, which in a game like this often means 'those willing to do whatever it takes'.

You should change that to most efficient traders of traders or no lifers of no lifers.

The fragments don't even have got an equal drop chance. That's already a point where the bullshit starts.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

I tried to do that when they upped the map fleet mod from ~25% to ~35%, I tried as hard as I could to think as a GGG dev who were at that time telling the community they were working on improving desync. Try as a might, I couldn't for the life of me justify doing that nor work out what or how the fuck they were thinking. I now take Zana missions in Forsaken Masters and find 60% fleet mods and the most ridiculous desync I've ever seen, I dare not try to think like them this time, my head might just explode.

Yea, new Lagmervil, 60% "of Fleet" Desyncyard or fracturing, frenzied sea witches with their spawns, with Magnus Desyncthorn thrown it to spice things up. Such small examples from my recent play time.

We are wondering if GGG test anything at all, but the other thing is, if they are willing to implement tests results. Because constantly adding to game elements that their game engine and servers evidently have problems handling, says quite reverse story.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

While I don't disagree with the conclusion, I don't think that basing balancing decisions on uber atziri is a good idea.

While I don't disagree with you, I don't think Uber Atziri was a good idea ;)