[3.0] NeverSink's ♣ INDEPTH Tornado&Archer Guide ♣ Beginner friendly ♣ Rapid clear ♣ All bosses

"

macexor wrote:

I'm not sure what exactly to do next.

First off, congratulations on making it past Merciless and into mapping!

As for your gear... well, your DPS is going to improve tremendously because just about every item you have is in need of a major upgrade :-). But we all need to start somewhere.

What I'd do:
1. Get some strength-gloves with high life and resists. Four-link them and setup a cast when damage taken (CWDT) gem set as follows: CWDT-Enduring Cry-Immortal Call-Increased Duration. This will help your survivability quite a lot. Normally I set this up on my boots, but if you're going to use Atziri's Step you'll want to do this on your gloves because getting 3 or 4 red sockets on Atziri's is very expensive.
2. Sell your Three Dragons helm. It's not doing you any good. Get a nice evasion helm with high life and resists. You'll want a 4-link RRGG so you can run Reduced Mana, Herald of Ash, Herald of Ice, Hatred.
3. Upgrade your bow. You won't be able to afford an awesome Harbinger but for 3 exalts or so you can get something much better than you currently have. The bow upgrade is by far your biggest DPS gain.
4. Drop Tabula Rasa for a nice evasion/life/resists chest piece. 5-link the chest. Drop Blood Magic from your link. With a bit of mana leech on your gear you won't need blood magic. Dropping Tabula Rasa will benefit you quite a bit since you'll have more life and the resists on you chest will mean that you'll have a much easier time upgrading other gear while maintaining resist cap.

Good luck!

Small gear upgrade : 1c each for bow and topaz ring (I needed that Accuracy..) and self dropped chest (which is really good, do you think I can try to 5L it, or is it better to get a better one for that ? )

Wow, what a difference!
At first I was actually going to do the same thing I wrote in previous post, but than thought to myself "Well, those guys probably know better than me" :D.
Couldn't find better jewellery/belt, but overall it's still a great upgrade.
Was thinking that freezing would drop my dps (having shock from the Three Dragons before) but Herald of Ice's aoe kicked in and it turned out to be way better. Also it helps hugely against this summoner type exile because he has hardly any corpses.
CWDT also helps immensely.
TBH I don't use puncture at all. Assasin's mark seems to do the job just fine.

Still there are 2 problems.




1) I don't have enough mana to drop Blood Magic. I just have enough to cast TS 2/3 times, which seems to be too low no matter what mana leech I have. On the other hand getting an armour that would actually give me something souds too good to pass.

2)What about Chaos res? Just leave it at -60%?

Quiz time) which part of my gear is the worst one atm?

I was recently experimenting with this Tornado shot build and I want to apologize in advance if it was allready covered but I can't scan through 200+pages to see if there was a reasonable answer:


What are the thoughts of the more experienced TS players and OP on if or when PCoC is a viable choice as a 5th / 6th link instead of crit dmg gem.

Currently i juggle with a utility shot of split chain curse on hit assmark and feel the power charge keep up is very inconsistent.
With pcoc the dps is basically the same as with crit dmg gem without power charges up, BUT the big advantage that i noticed is that due to 200% more crit chance, the dmg output feels MUCH more consistent, as crits are the source of the real clearing speed, atleast I feel that way.

Does this change at some point of gear levels or passive points spent?
I get the impression that maximazing crit chance seems more beneficial to clear speed, and with a utility shot ass mark, its still possible to curse bosses/uniques for that little more crit chance/crit dmg boost.

I am sitting at 49% crit chance unbuffed for reference, with 4 charges pushing me to 65%.


Also my second question is, with running a high crit chance settup, might it be worth to swap Herald of Ice to thunder? Is the herald of ice aoe an integral part of the clear speed, compared to shocks from thunder?

I hadnt had the chance yet to test that myself, input appreciated.

I wonder why Oak ( 18% increased physical damage ) would be a better choice than Kraytin ( 8% increased attack speed ) in cruel.

Since all damage bonuses are additive ( e.g. increases to physical damage are additive together with increases to projectile damage, at least with regards to my personal experience ) the damage increases from the skill tree are way bigger than the increases to attack speed.

Taking the finished base build with 99 skill points as a base

https://www.poebuilder.com/character/AAAAAgIAm40ILgBeGY7tg9N-73oKm-cKeOv8xVb6fyt311FHMHxNkiP2jX2m4H8CMpTZxpUFyqldaJrxCInUIwW1jb_Wim1sbIydqjY9Yqy1SKc0wJzjhB9BBiMDHha_YeImlVVL53To1nBSKgvz6ow2oJ9v8jnUwTOGziF2W6_dDf_eJP3nVK_rLOm-pxm0ytPqYnXLvTZlTUd-pDnQgUfiIuIVIEp945-HdmegOkJLeN2oMHH-un11XkWS8_rrelNh6896shkyAZsm

results in

259% increased Damage ( 32% increased Physical Damage + 157% increased Physical Damage with Bows + 70% increased Projectile Damage )
73% increased Attack Speed ( 52% Attack Speed + 21% increased Attack Speed with Bows )

which means

Oak : 18% increased physical damage resulting in 259% + 18% = 277% total increased damage
- Percental damage increase bonus : 18% * 100 / 277% = ~6.5%

Kraytin : 8% increased attack speed resulting in 73% + 8% = 81% total increased attack speed
- Percental attack speed increase bonus : 8% * 100 / 81% = ~9.9%

Even if phys attack damage and projectile damage werent additive the result would be

Oak : 18% increased physical damage resulting in 189% + 18% = 207% total increased physical damage
- Percental damage increase bonus : 18% * 100 / 207% = ~8.7%

The highest percental gain still would come from Kraytin with 9.9% ( which then scales the total dps ).

Either my calculations are wrong at some point or Oak providing the best damage bonus is a myth that might have been true in the past but isnt anymore.

"

AdFinitum wrote:

I wonder why Oak ( 18% increased physical damage ) would be a better choice than Kraytin ( 8% increased attack speed ) in cruel.

Since all damage bonuses are additive ( e.g. increases to physical damage are additive together with increases to projectile damage, at least with regards to my personal experience ) the damage increases from the skill tree are way bigger than the increases to attack speed.

Taking the finished base build with 99 skill points as a base

https://www.poebuilder.com/character/AAAAAgIAm40ILgBeGY7tg9N-73oKm-cKeOv8xVb6fyt311FHMHxNkiP2jX2m4H8CMpTZxpUFyqldaJrxCInUIwW1jb_Wim1sbIydqjY9Yqy1SKc0wJzjhB9BBiMDHha_YeImlVVL53To1nBSKgvz6ow2oJ9v8jnUwTOGziF2W6_dDf_eJP3nVK_rLOm-pxm0ytPqYnXLvTZlTUd-pDnQgUfiIuIVIEp945-HdmegOkJLeN2oMHH-un11XkWS8_rrelNh6896shkyAZsm

results in

259% increased Damage ( 32% increased Physical Damage + 157% increased Physical Damage with Bows + 70% increased Projectile Damage )
73% increased Attack Speed ( 52% Attack Speed + 21% increased Attack Speed with Bows )

which means

Oak : 18% increased physical damage resulting in 259% + 18% = 277% total increased damage
- Absolute damage increase : 18% * 100 / 277% = ~6.5%

Kraytin : 8% increased attack speed resulting in 73% + 8% = 81% total increased attack speed
- Absolute attack speed increase : 8% * 100 / 81% = ~9.9%

Even if phys attack damage and projectile damage werent additive the result would be

Oak : 18% increased physical damage resulting in 189% + 18% = 207% total increased physical damage
- Absolute damage increase : 18% * 100 / 207% = ~8.7%

The highest damage gain still would come from Kraytin with an effective 9.9% attack speed increase ( which then scales the total dps ).

Either my calculations are wrong at some point or Oak providing the best damage bonus is a myth that might have been true in the past but isnt anymore.

You're somewhat right.

Actually, the attack speed on the bow is working differently and you didn't consider the attack speed from faster attacks, reduced attack speed from PPAD and attack speed from Rat's nest.

...and you're still right

Overall in my level 92 setup (using my calculator), I'd be gettign a ~6% more DPS BONUS (the overall DPS difference is <0.3%).

So why phys. damage instead? :)

Because:

1) Due to the way leech works (outside of godgloves), you're better off with single stronger attacks
2) Slower stronger attacks cost less mana to sustain
3) Stronger attacks, increase the number of things you can 1shot-crit/hit
4) Works way better with puncture

So technically you can also go for Kraitin, but I prefer the utility advantage, over the very very minor DPS boost

"

1) I don't have enough mana to drop Blood Magic. I just have enough to cast TS 2/3 times, which seems to be too low no matter what mana leech I have. On the other hand getting an armour that would actually give me something souds too good to pass.

2)What about Chaos res? Just leave it at -60%?

Quiz time) which part of my gear is the worst one atm?

1) There is nothing wrong with blood magic as a temp. solution. It's mostly about mana leech and damage. Once you have 2-4% mana leech and a somewhat decent harbinger bow, you can sustain your mana without any issues
2) Yes leave -60%. It's not optimal, but unless (and even) if you're playing hardcore, I wouldn't bother.

And sorry, I don't answer upgrade questions, there's an item section for that :)

"

I was recently experimenting with this Tornado shot build and I want to apologize in advance if it was allready covered but I can't scan through 200+pages to see if there was a reasonable answer:


What are the thoughts of the more experienced TS players and OP on if or when PCoC is a viable choice as a 5th / 6th link instead of crit dmg gem.

Currently i juggle with a utility shot of split chain curse on hit assmark and feel the power charge keep up is very inconsistent.
With pcoc the dps is basically the same as with crit dmg gem without power charges up, BUT the big advantage that i noticed is that due to 200% more crit chance, the dmg output feels MUCH more consistent, as crits are the source of the real clearing speed, atleast I feel that way.

Does this change at some point of gear levels or passive points spent?
I get the impression that maximazing crit chance seems more beneficial to clear speed, and with a utility shot ass mark, its still possible to curse bosses/uniques for that little more crit chance/crit dmg boost.

I am sitting at 49% crit chance unbuffed for reference, with 4 charges pushing me to 65%.


Also my second question is, with running a high crit chance settup, might it be worth to swap Herald of Ice to thunder? Is the herald of ice aoe an integral part of the clear speed, compared to shocks from thunder?

I hadnt had the chance yet to test that myself, input appreciated.

1) PCoC is decent, you can use it if you want, but I usually had no issues keeping my power charges up with assassins mark and optimized quicksilver flasks. This is somewhat a preference thing
2) The shocks from herald of thunder wont last long enough to help with any high HP enemy and clearing AoE trash was never a trouble with this build. I run Herald of Ice for it's safety aspect, when combined with hatred. Things that can't move, can't kill you. Though once again, you can give it a try, there's even a triple herald variation of this build

Thanks for replying - nice that you still maintain the thread.

Yeah I expected the reason being something else than DPS.

Life leech, Mana and Puncture. On the other hand higher attack speed has its advantages too - a little bit less reflect, faster reaction time, faster follow up shots to shoot if the first one was no crit. Overall probably just a minor difference and a matter of choice.

However especially in the 1 month league with limited gear options Oak is probably the safer bet ( dont want to have to struggle with gear due to mana short comings ^^ ).

Great build and best guide for it IMHO :) Lets hope it doesnt get nerfed to the ground soon ...

"

macexor wrote:

Wow, what a difference!

I'm glad you found some of the advice you've received helpful.

But I ascribe to Neversink's "Teach a Man to Fish" philosophy; most of the questions you'll have will be answered in the first few pages of this excellent guide.

Nonetheless, I feel compelled to offer one last piece of parting advice since I feel responsible for my possibly incomplete suggestions...

With regard to a nice Cast-When-Damage-Taken setup, you'll want to stop leveling the Cast-When-Damage-Taken gem at some point. Why? Because the more you level the CWDT gem, the less often it will proc - it takes more and more damage for the gem to activate as it levels.

For me, and many others, I leave the CWDT gem at level 1; I find that this CWDT gem level is most helpful for me.

Next, note that, for a particular CWDT gem level, there's an associated CWDT supported gem maximum skill level. What this means is that CWDT won't activate Enduring Cry or Immortal Call if the level of these two supported gems exceeds the particular maximum associated with your current CWDT gem. I'd advise you to stop leveling your CWDT gem immediately and only level your Enduring Cry and Immortal Call gems to the level supported by CWDT. Also note that the Increased Duration skill gem isn't affected by this - keep on leveling your Increased Duration gem.

Finally, if you're truly stuck, and if you've read the first few pages or so of this guide, feel free to post any questions you have - we'll be glad to help. The Tornado Shot community - at least insofar as represented in this thread - are friendly and helpful.

Once more, good luck and have fun.

"

Tyranastrasz wrote:

What are the thoughts of the more experienced TS players and OP on if or when PCoC is a viable choice as a 5th / 6th link instead of crit dmg gem.

Many crit-based builds are now using a Reduced Mana - Curse On Hit (CoH) - Herald of Thunder (HoT) - Assassin's Mark (AM) setup to generate power charges. As an alternative to equipping Power Charge on Crit (PCoC) you might want to experiment with this.

My own thoughts on the CoH setup...

I found that the CoH setup doesn't work very well until you have 20 quality on your AM gem. Without the quality, power charges drop off way too often.

Another drawback to the CoH setup is that it forces a very fast kill-kill-kill play style; if you like to stop and take your time looting slain mobs and/or cautiously approach the next pack, you'll likely find that the CoH setup isn't very helpful.

Finally, some crit-based builds are using CoH-HoT-Herald of Ice (HoI)-AM; you might find that this gives you more consistent power charges. Personally, I think that this setup is worthwhile only until you can get 20% quality on your AM.

Play around with these... PCoC or CoH-HoT or CoH-HoT-HoI... see what you like best and go with it.

For the record, my 88 ranger on Standard uses CoH-HoT which I find to be best for me; I even went so far as to expensively color my Maligaro's to support this setup.

"

Darkaleb wrote:

Hi guys!
Decided to use TS on both AOE and single target, and now i have a 6L free:

do you have any advice on how optimize it?
I was thinking about a 6L CWDT, cause i don't need curse (already use ass mark on herald of thunder) or another particular attack...

Thank you all in advance!

I would look at the Point Blank-Trap setup for another utility shot. Great for handling reflect rares/uniques and Atziri bosses.