Why would I ever not take Iron Reflexes as Evasion?

Endless discussion tbh, but the answer is simple:

Even high evasion + acro + phase acro + dodge boots + ondars guile will give you a pretty small chance to get hit, and you know, with eva based builds getting hit from some boss = spike dmg. So with eva, despite all and every effort, every rare/unique boss with some boosted damage (extra phys + powerfull crits for instance) offer a slight chance to kill you on the spot.

On the other hand, armor offer you a more stable solution as a constant dmg reduction, but you will be getting hitted all the time.

So for HC leagues the more stable option is armor, although as examples are everywhere. eva may be a viable, but more dungeorus aternative.

On SC, on the other hand, if you use a ranged skill, IR should never ever be considered.

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guipumi wrote:

Endless discussion tbh, but the answer is simple:

Even high evasion + acro + phase acro + dodge boots + ondars guile will give you a pretty small chance to get hit, and you know, with eva based builds getting hit from some boss = spike dmg. So with eva, despite all and every effort, every rare/unique boss with some boosted damage (extra phys + powerfull crits for instance) offer a slight chance to kill you on the spot.

On the other hand, armor offer you a more stable solution as a constant dmg reduction, but you will be getting hitted all the time.

So for HC leagues the more stable option is armor, although as examples are everywhere. eva may be a viable, but more dungeorus aternative.

On SC, on the other hand, if you use a ranged skill, IR should never ever be considered.

If damage would one shot your 5k+ HP melee evasion character stacking a minimum of 3 endurance charges then there's a significant chance it would also one shot the armour user with similar numbers.

Very significant.

There's no good reason for Evasion to get one shot where armour would not.

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guipumi wrote:

Endless discussion tbh, but the answer is simple:

Even high evasion + acro + phase acro + dodge boots + ondars guile will give you a pretty small chance to get hit, and you know, with eva based builds getting hit from some boss = spike dmg. So with eva, despite all and every effort, every rare/unique boss with some boosted damage (extra phys + powerfull crits for instance) offer a slight chance to kill you on the spot.

On the other hand, armor offer you a more stable solution as a constant dmg reduction, but you will be getting hitted all the time.

So for HC leagues the more stable option is armor, although as examples are everywhere. eva may be a viable, but more dungeorus aternative.

On SC, on the other hand, if you use a ranged skill, IR should never ever be considered.

Oh, powerful crits are a one shot threat. Guess what prevents crits from happening? Evasion. Not armor, though. High evasion + dodge can cut that rare one-shot-crit-chance on the order of twenty fold. Armor might mitigate maybe a quarter of it. Maybe that level of mitigation will save you, but my money's on the guy who cut the chance of that crit even happening to a quarter of a quarter of sixty percent. Or much better if it's ranged. And who got free spell evasion on top of that.

I am loving the evasion build with my own scion crit tornado shot build. I just need to stack a bit more life, was feeling cocky and started running some maps. Max resists and 4k hp, still got one shot by the Flame Blast templar exile. Curse you RNG, why didn't Phase Acrobatics kick in :(

Other than that, smart flask usage and kiting is a LOT more fun than facetanking with an armor build.

I take IR on all of my dex chars.

If you want avoidance block is miles better than evasion.

Talking from a hc perspective tho, I can see evasion working ok in sc with enough life

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guipumi wrote:

Endless discussion tbh, but the answer is simple:

Even high evasion + acro + phase acro + dodge boots + ondars guile will give you a pretty small chance to get hit, and you know, with eva based builds getting hit from some boss = spike dmg. So with eva, despite all and every effort, every rare/unique boss with some boosted damage (extra phys + powerfull crits for instance) offer a slight chance to kill you on the spot.

Given that example there is this one hit, that kills your Eva-Char with just the average 4k HP, while having 75% Blockchance, 50% Evasion and 40% Dodge-Chance thus only getting hit in 7,5% of cases of which are... I assume about less than 10% are crits, so you have a under 1% chance to get critically hit.

An Armor-User with 75% Blockchance however has a 25% chance to hit and a twice as high chance of getting critically hit, due to not having evasion.

Now we just assume since crits won't kill an evasion-based char, since they rarely happen, and compare a normal hit killing the 4k Evasion char in one go (because due to entropy he can't get hit twice in a row, with the block and dodge chance it is likely he will not even be hit with the 3rd or 4th hit. The Armor-based char however has a high chance of getting hit twice, since block isn't entropy-based so with 25% chance to not block it is likely to get hit twice in a row.

So to survive that likely scenario of two hits in a row the armor char needs 50% mitigation. If he has endurance-charge he would survive more... but in that case the eva-char would survive as well. Also 50% Mitigation is easy to calculate, you need exactly 12 times as much armor as the hit does damage. So to survive that you need 48.000 Armor. Not to mention that even though they have acrobatics the small buffer of 3k Armor an Eva/Acro-Char gets from a granite flask still provides 6% damage-reduction, which is 1,5 times the amount an endurance charge gives.

So with endurance charges and Granite-Flasks the Eva/Acro-Char could reach a chance of 7,5% of getting hit with still 20% damage-mitigation.

So an Armor-Based char with about 100k Armor takes more damage then an evasion-based char with just about 20k Evasion, if both have 75% Block-Chance. The total damage taken is 8,1% for the Armor-Char and 7,5% for the Eva-Char. Although 100k Armor would make the char immune to physical damage below 4.000 damage with just 5 endurance charges getting 100.000 Armor is tough.

But due to armor actually being able to make you completly immune to certain physical damage-sources it can be fairly valuable. However it is only good against small hits and incredible weak against big crits. Given that the big weakness of evasion, physical spells, isn't exactly a strength of armor, since most of those spells deliver a fairly high amount of damage in one hit making Armor less useful.

Exspecially most of the hardest content is really easy or at least easier for Evasion based chars, mostly because they can utilize Spell-Dodge in addition to Spell-Block. The Apex is a very nice place for Acro-Chars, because it isn't as filled with physical spells and benefits highly from Spelldodge. A lot of map-bosses like Crematorium or Dominus don't utilize high physical damage spells and are thus nice for Evasion/Acro-Chars.

The thing that keeps Evasion-Chars from being played are propably mainly a few issues, that are not really related to the defense at all:

1. People don't seem to understand all the mechanics of Evasion/Acrobatics. They don't know that a lot of defense mechanisms like Blind and Enfeeble get a lot more powerful, that they can roll against crits and that evasion in fact isn't random.

2. Gearing with Evasion is a bit hard during leveling. It is basically the same as if you would start the game with CI. You need good gear. While for armor basically every point counts having too low evasion means you can get hit twice or even three times in a row.

3. While there are no Armor-Piercing enemies there are Accurate enemies.

4. People don't understand how bad the information given about armor-usage is. The physical damage-reduction value given to them is rather pointless, yet it is fairly obvious that the chance to evade given from the game is likely not correct given the ability to change enemies accuracy or varying amounts of accuracy in the first place. Since people often don't know that armor is valued against the damage of a hit like evasion is valued against enemy accuracy they think armor is a very constant working concept, something it is in fact not.

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Amiag wrote:

I take IR on all of my dex chars.

If you want avoidance block is miles better than evasion.

Talking from a hc perspective tho, I can see evasion working ok in sc with enough life

High evasion is vastly better than block (talking only about physical damage mitigation) because evasion reduces hit chance plus also crit chance. And then on top of that, there's ondar's guile and acrobatics and phase acrobatics. Wanna bet the guys getting one shot by that nasty beyond archer are more likely to be armor, block or evasion + ondar's guile?

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lazorexplosion wrote:

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Amiag wrote:

I take IR on all of my dex chars.

If you want avoidance block is miles better than evasion.

Talking from a hc perspective tho, I can see evasion working ok in sc with enough life

High evasion is vastly better than block (talking only about physical damage mitigation) because evasion reduces hit chance plus also crit chance. And then on top of that, there's ondar's guile and acrobatics and phase acrobatics. Wanna bet the guys getting one shot by that nasty beyond archer are more likely to be armor, block or evasion + ondar's guile?

using a single situation in which evasion is better seems like a really weak argument.

block can work on spells with some gear investment
block is easier to stack since it has no diminishing returns
block requires a single equipment slot
block doesnt have any counter, "accurate" monsters or phys spells bypass evasion completely
block builds can STILL also use blind for evading

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Amiag wrote:

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lazorexplosion wrote:

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Amiag wrote:

I take IR on all of my dex chars.

If you want avoidance block is miles better than evasion.

Talking from a hc perspective tho, I can see evasion working ok in sc with enough life

High evasion is vastly better than block (talking only about physical damage mitigation) because evasion reduces hit chance plus also crit chance. And then on top of that, there's ondar's guile and acrobatics and phase acrobatics. Wanna bet the guys getting one shot by that nasty beyond archer are more likely to be armor, block or evasion + ondar's guile?

using a single situation in which evasion is better seems like a really weak argument.

block can work on spells with some gear investment
block is easier to stack since it has no diminishing returns
block requires a single equipment slot
block doesnt have any counter, "accurate" monsters or phys spells bypass evasion completely
block builds can STILL also use blind for evading

And yet it'a slways a single situation used to counter evasion as a solid defense.

So to go down your list fo simplicity

Evasion has dodge for spells, or can use block
Evasion doesn't have significant difficulty being stacked
Evasion is replacing equipment slots that otherwise would have armour (ie 0 slot real investment)
"Accurate" monsters don;t come anywhere close to bypassing evasion
Evasion builds STILL use block for blocking, and benefit from Dodge (which non EV block is going to have trouble utilizing well)

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Autocthon wrote:

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Amiag wrote:

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lazorexplosion wrote:

High evasion is vastly better than block (talking only about physical damage mitigation) because evasion reduces hit chance plus also crit chance. And then on top of that, there's ondar's guile and acrobatics and phase acrobatics. Wanna bet the guys getting one shot by that nasty beyond archer are more likely to be armor, block or evasion + ondar's guile?

using a single situation in which evasion is better seems like a really weak argument.

block can work on spells with some gear investment
block is easier to stack since it has no diminishing returns
block requires a single equipment slot
block doesnt have any counter, "accurate" monsters or phys spells bypass evasion completely
block builds can STILL also use blind for evading

And yet it'a slways a single situation used to counter evasion as a solid defense.

So to go down your list fo simplicity

Evasion has dodge for spells, or can use block
Evasion doesn't have significant difficulty being stacked
Evasion is replacing equipment slots that otherwise would have armour (ie 0 slot real investment)
"Accurate" monsters don;t come anywhere close to bypassing evasion
Evasion builds STILL use block for blocking, and benefit from Dodge (which non EV block is going to have trouble utilizing well)

lol sorry but you are just completely biased