Exit stage left

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Kandamo wrote:

Mision accomplished by GGG, just look at all those forum tittles.

This game is making a nice profit, they wont change anything *SAD!*(they dont care that much because the game produces money as it is right now)

New content = more players = more money, then those players realize about that fucked up game balance that makes you want to quit and feel depressed because you threw money at GGg

old players who already spent money quit, then the excited new players come and buy their supporter packs, and BAM! mission accomplished again ggg let them get bored so they quit, so new excited players come and blablahblahblahblahbla etc etc until game dies in about 2 yrs

ggg doesnt give a fuck because they already made a profit out of players that already quit or are going to

This is the business model today! Cheers to to you!

Number 1 priority recover production costs plus profit. After that its icing on the cake.

Lesson 2: you can't post and rant against fanboys and these young gamers!
Because games like these are all they know they don't remember a time when games were better!

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Nemacyst wrote:

Your preaching to the choir. Unfortunately this is what happens when you make free to play game.

You want a free to play game? Well then you have accept the shttty mechanics as well. After all its a business and still has to run.

I'm amazed that even after a decade developers just haven't come up with better systems. There is no innovation. And as long players are willing to put up with it will continue.

1) free game does not always equal shit game.

2) no one has to accept or put up with anything, as a player/user in a product designed by definition to provide fun and entertainment, no matter free or not.

3) I'm amazed PoE is the only game you played in the RPG, Action-RPG, Rogue-like or Dungeon-Crawler genre in a decade.
otherwise, you'll know there are at least a couple counter-examples to that last claim of yours, which are pretty much universal consensus - and about a dozen counter-examples in my opinion.

You guys expect to to to much from GGG by asking how can they watch people leaving. Fact is they are amateurs, and if they would know how, they would fix all the problems with game. But they are choking, they dont know what to do.

So just do what i do, who ever asks me about POE i just tell them to stay the hell away, so that POE can die. And when it dies there is chance for POE 2, which can be done right, by GGG or even better some serious company. POE 2 could be the game we all want, POE 1 never will, it is beyond repair.

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Jojas wrote:

The mistake many people make, is to assume that their way of playing is the only viable one. If they don't progress fast enough, it's the game's fault. If they go and complain about "being stuck" because "nothing good ever drops", others - with the same mentality but a different mindset - come in to tell them that it's their fault.

Whatever happens, there is always someone to put the blame on, while their own preferences are just like they should be.

I think you are making the same mistake here. You see one type of a player's attitude - which is successful. This attitude resembles your own, you are successful too (?), ergo everybody who complains is "wrong" (lack of knowledge etc.).

I dont see everyone who complains as wrong, the basis of what I was getting at was..

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

What people complain about is often not what the problem they are having is. Its very hard to know what to change to fix a given set of feedback of the sort often posted here.

its not that there isnt a problem in the game, everything is fine and its all the players 'fault'. Its more that they complain about drop rates or gear walls, and the real problem is that the game hasnt brought them to a point where they understand how to use the gear they are finding to move forward. Its debatable how much the game should inform you and how much of the burden should be on the player to find/try things out, weve had that convo and there is a lot of extremely different views on it.


I do think game knowledge is at the heart of PoE. Skill in a game like this, direct reflex skills do not account for much. And that is a good thing, imo. Its part of the adventure, learning and using what you know to guess at further things and then try them out, its where a lot of the reward is. I think a key issue in the game is how much the game should make efforts to better inform people and how much it should be down to the player to learn the game. It would be wrong to spoon feed too much, the reward is in figuring out stuff. but dont get me wrong, Im not belittling people, Im just saying if they want to overcome their problems theres people who are getting further, managing, that proves its possible, the info is out there... if you really want to get past it then you need to take some responsibility and want to progress, if you just want to complain and refuse to rise to the challenge the games not going to be nerfed to suit you.


I think some people dont want to change, dont want to take on the challenge, dont want to even progress any more, they only want to vent frustration at the game. and in that I believe those people are wrong, theyre kidding themselves. There are others who are unaware they are doing something, maybe a lot of things wrong. What they are doing IS wrong, that is the heart of the reason they complain, but whos fault it is that they dont know is a grey area.

Im not having a dig at anyone, Im just stating the indisputable fact that there is more than 1 relatively easy path through this game, documented, its out there, how to win at everything is out there. no one knows it when they first start, we are all ignorant on day 1, that doesnt make us 'wrong', but it does lead to most stuff we start out doing being 'wrong', and at some point you have to take responsibility for not accepting this and learning how to do it 'right'.





edit: note, want to say again none of this is not about Witt and his observations. I made a post about complainers yesterday in charans thread too, and that wasnt in any way aimed at charan and his points either. I have a lot of respect for Witt and Char, theyre good people, have made many good posts, have donated a lot to the game, absolutely nothing Im saying is aimed at these guys, just at the wider general vibe of the forums.

^^^^^^^ funny how so many people are saying the same things now, things I got flamed for months ago, yet the same white knights are here continuing to tell everyone they are wrong.


Some have wised up others continue to whiteknight like its a full time job.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

I think some people dont want to change, dont want to take on the challenge, dont want to even progress any more, they only want to vent frustration at the game. and in that I believe those people are wrong, theyre kidding themselves. There are others who are unaware they are doing something, maybe a lot of things wrong. What they are doing IS wrong, that is the heart of the reason they complain, but whos fault it is that they dont know is a grey area.

Im not having a dig at anyone, Im just stating the indisputable fact that there is more than 1 relatively easy path through this game, documented, its out there, how to win at everything is out there. no one knows it when they first start, we are all ignorant on day 1, that doesnt make us 'wrong', but it does lead to most stuff we start out doing being 'wrong', and at some point you have to take responsibility for not accepting this and learning how to do it 'right'.

I fully agree with you here. But the kind of players you describe: PoE is just not the right game for them. If they complain, the best reaction might be "in to the one ear, and out to the other".

But my point was not about them, but about people who are willing and able to dig into the mechanics and the intricacies of PoE and who feel let down by it. Because PoE in its current state greatly favours one type of player: someone who knows where his build will end up, and which uniques or affixes on rares he needs for it, and who disregards everything else as trade-material, so as to achieve his goal in a reasonable amount of time.

A fitting description might be to call these players' interests "vertical" - aiming at the top - while his polar opposite, the "horizontal" one - aiming to spread out, i.e. experimenting with a multitude of builds - has been more or less left out in the cold.

As far as I know it is the latter who have serious and well-founded complaints. Because as such a player you are stuck in a dilemma in PoE: You cannot really trade because your interest in making lots and lots of builds prevents you from selling your good drops. But without selling them you will not have the orbs to make lots of builds.
Up until now there is only one solution to that and that is endless, monotonous grinding.
It really is now wonder that players of this type complain and eventually quit.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

It would be wrong to spoon feed too much, the reward is in figuring out stuff. but dont get me wrong, Im not belittling people, Im just saying if they want to overcome their problems theres people who are getting further, managing, that proves its possible, the info is out there... if you really want to get past it then you need to take some responsibility and want to progress, if you just want to complain and refuse to rise to the challenge the games not going to be nerfed to suit you.


I think some people dont want to change, dont want to take on the challenge, dont want to even progress any more, they only want to vent frustration at the game. and in that I believe those people are wrong, theyre kidding themselves. There are others who are unaware they are doing something, maybe a lot of things wrong. What they are doing IS wrong, that is the heart of the reason they complain, but whos fault it is that they dont know is a grey area.

My own opinion on this is, you're expected to trade, and the trade system isn't in the game. I find that to be an unacceptable situation. Yes, I could rise to the challenge, get Procurement all set up, start making regular trades and imcreasing my wealth to advance. But it's absolute bullshit that the game is structured so that this is the path to progression, yet the tools aren't even in the game. That's wholly on GGG.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Kandamo wrote:

This game is making a nice profit, they wont change anything *SAD!*(they dont care that much because the game produces money as it is right now)

I think youre wrong man, I think they care deeply about the game and the players.



Its not as easy as just pushing a fix button though. What people complain about is often not what the problem they are having is. Its very hard to know what to change to fix a given set of feedback of the sort often posted here. Im talking generally here, not about Witts particular points or Witt at all.



An example is solo self found viability and gear walls through the game. some people have been playing for over a year and feel locked out of getting to lvl75 and playing maps, and they blame a lot of different factors for this. However...


Recently a D3 streamer called Moses played PoE for the first time and streamed his first character. He was playing solo, self found, self built just making it up as he went along and disregarding the majority of advice from his chat. His first char within a week was grinding lvl70 maps, a lvl82 witch now I believe? Took him 7 days coming from diablo 3 knowing absolutely nothing about the game to completely destroy this concept of self found viability for reaching endgame and competently playing it being broken.

Sorry, but must say, he played whole day, more than 10h every day for those 7 days and more. For those 7 days he probably invested around 100h in the game. Not even talking that he actually did listen to a lot of thing people suggested in chat, the only thing he did not is the trading crap a lot of people suggest. 100h is a lot of time invested in any game, especially PoE where the campaign is short. He got to end game maps, and can do to level around 70.

Dont know about the other dude, but moses i did follow.

The game has problems and a lot of people are posting about it for a long time. I really hope GGG will listen, and will move away from their economic centric balance and mechanics. ARPG games are not about trading, it never was and never will be.

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Jojas wrote:

But my point was not about them, but about people who are willing and able to dig into the mechanics and the intricacies of PoE and who feel let down by it. Because PoE in its current state greatly favours one type of player: someone who knows where his build will end up, and which uniques or affixes on rares he needs for it, and who disregards everything else as trade-material, so as to achieve his goal in a reasonable amount of time.

A fitting description might be to call these players' interests "vertical" - aiming at the top - while his polar opposite, the "horizontal" one - aiming to spread out, i.e. experimenting with a multitude of builds - has been more or less left out in the cold.

As far as I know it is the latter who have serious and well-founded complaints. Because as such a player you are stuck in a dilemma in PoE: You cannot really trade because your interest in making lots and lots of builds prevents you from selling your good drops. But without selling them you will not have the orbs to make lots of builds.
Up until now there is only one solution to that and that is endless, monotonous grinding.
It really is now wonder that players of this type complain and eventually quit.

yeah I hear what you are saying. I have a lot of alt characters in ambush and a shedload of gear, I currently have 16 endgame viable 5 link chests in my stash in the 4 month league, so I could do a lot of builds and try stuff out. But, I did grind the crap out of it, so that pretty much goes with what you are saying.


If you play a lot you can spread out and experiment a lot, but you definitely need to 'get there' first, so to speak. Well, its the tactic I subscribe to. I grind to merciless with 1 char, farm for gear that can destroy maps for a different char, then level that and from there we are grinding maps, finding loads of stuff and when i get bored of 1 build i make another and then another etc. I think people come unstuck when they keep rerolling before they get to the end bit where the payoff is, or dont grind it tons as you say.



Part of my thoughts in this area touches on what b15h09 said above about being expected to trade etc. They do expect trade, for sure. I feel that they want the game to be playable solo self found too though, and it is, in a more limited fashion. But heres the thing, that variety people want to experiment with, its not possible without trade, and thats not just because GGG dont want it to be.

Think about the amount of builds, the amount of items that go with those builds, its insane. How does the game know what you want to play next? Its impossible to drop you all the gear needed to do all the builds in this game well. Its an unthinkable variety of gear. If the game was all solo self found offline with all the gear being available with minimum farming you would have to have a lot smaller build and item diversity. So you would end up with the more limited game that solo self found already is in this game for casual players. And this would be fine, its what every other arpg that is offline solo self found has. The only problem is when people look at the gear and builds people who trade are making and fail to appreciate this diversity of gear and builds can only become viable for everyone in a system that has trade. The game is built around trade, no doubt, thats why it is able to be the amazing game it is. If you play solo self found casually for 30 hours a month its impossible for a game to give you the opportunities people who play 60+ hours a week in a trade economy game with 100,000s of other people have, without it just being a full cheat mode sandbox dev tool.


Trade isnt the game, trade isnt part of arpgs... I think this is personal taste tbh. Im 32, I played diablo 1 when it came out, Im fairly sure there was vendors in the game I traded with? Its been a while. Diablo 2 certainly had vendors and other players you could trade with. the player trades are no less valid than the vendor trades, the vendors were always a simulation of trading in towns with other adventurers, money sharks, dealers, flippers etc. thats what the vendor is doing right? flipping your items? he has a shop and ur selling him gear in bulk... yeah thats a simulated flipper existing in your game world. Trade has always been a part of these games, and trade with real players has been a part of them for as long as we have had these games online. You dont want to trade? fine man, Im not knocking it. But I believe its part of the game, GGG seem to believe so, and if it wasnt then the diversity that you cant access solo self found couldnt really exist anyway.


The grind is extreme, this is true, but the game is a grind, the whole thing. A worse situation than the content outlasting your will to grind is your will to grind outlast the content provided, so its a double edge sword.


Ultimately I agree to a large extent with the things said, but I believe this game couldnt be the amazing thing it is without being a multiplayer trade environment game. Yes parts of that suck, but theres so much more about it that doesnt suck. Why arnt people playing Titan Quest or Torchlight 2? If they dont want a trade game, if they want sfl why arnt they playing an slf game like those? Because theyre limited, boring little games with no shelf life, the reason you are here instead is because this is a far better game, because its been built around a multiplayer trade economy.