Exit stage left

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DirkAustin wrote:

I agree with the crafting. Its not crafting, its gambling. In crafting you have a choice in part what you get and then some things you dont have influence on. Here its just all RNG and more RNG.

^

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rrtson wrote:

He forgot to include the word 'challenging' in front of "mobs". Grinding Docks and City of Sarn 24/7 is not challenging or rewarding. It just makes people feel like shit.

As Midnights still sells for 15 chaos on standard, it is rewarding. Which is sad. And this is one of aspects of "economy design", you get more from trading and running low level content than from taking challenges.

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kasub wrote:

"

2. Skill Web - is now pointless, our paths are dwindled down to 2 now and for the first... what, 20 levels or so, we really have 0 choice beyond deciding which of those 2 paths to follow. Later it branches off, and some interesting things can be accomplished, but really there is nothing in the web that couldn't have been done in a branching tree system. When the game was first in CB I enjoyed the web so much more. From the start you could go in 4 different directions and things felt much more open. Now, the web's only purpose seems to be:
(a) punishing new players who don't know what path to follow and
(b) creating the illusion of choice and complexity on screen shots for new players to be impressed by and drawn in. A bait and switch

What exactly makes the skill web pointless from what you said?

The correct paths depend on the build. Some branches lead to different nodes which means there is different optimal paths for different builds.

There actually is a lot of choice and complexity in the tree, it's not an illusion. Anyone who has created their own build knows as much. Many builds will vary and optimal paths change depending on your focus. It gets more interesting when you're going beyond 95 points or so since you'll often be trading one benefit for another.

It's like everyone just woke up this month and saw the game for what it is: a great indie effort completely destroyed by idiotic design decisions. Starting with a netcode effort beyond their means and snowballing from there.

Anyway, to respond to the quoted post, yes, the skill tree is a complete waste of time, that could have been replaced with the standard, "put a few points in red/blue/green stats when you level up and pick a passive/active in a much simpler tree system" Lets be honest, you can take a full life build GS marauder, put BiS wander gear and quality gems on him, and I bet he could still competently map.

The skill tree is a 'thought sink' to trick people into hours of theory crafting, when your build is still made and broken in gear and gems.

Give me godmode gear, I'll stack life then throw some darts and take whatever major nodes are close, bet I'd still have a strong char.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I think that's part of it. However, that's not a very good method to convince players to perform a particular action. For example, running a Temple map with the -max resistances affix is challenging (and, in my experience, often turns out to be much more fun of a Piety fight than you might anticipate), but most players will through a Chaos at such a thing rather than risk it.

Temp chains, chilled ground, -Max, double Pietits Temple, on a low dps ranger. So horrible it had to be done.

It was fun, it was challenging. It was, the appeal of the unappealing.

However, I look at Temple maps now as either alch shards or chisel recipes.
If I'm not doing 74+ (73 at a push), I'd rather be running Lunaris (reluctantly) for orbs.
If ever I had to run a 71, I'd pick an Arach nest or a Strand.

This is because of how crazy map seed is, I'm going to get showered in maps no matter what I do, at times. Then I'm going to get fuck all for an extended period and lose all my 74+ maps. However, I'll be able to pick and choose from all the 73- maps that were showered in the pinata seed period. Waiting for the go-go-seeds and riding them when they come. Looking for challenge here is no longer even considered. If it gives no XP or loot, it needs to be minimal risk.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

<...> but I honestly have no idea what "economy-centric design" would really even mean.

As my mentioning and Scrotie's questioning of the term became somewhat of a topic for debate.
I'll just cross post this from your map thread, Scrotie.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I believe these failures have occurred due to a development mindset which looks at the map system as an endgame currency and time sink first, and as replayable endgame content second, if at all.

^This, Scrotie, this is economy centric design.

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Wittgenstein wrote:

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kasub wrote:

"

2. Skill Web - is now pointless, our paths are dwindled down to 2 now and for the first... what, 20 levels or so, we really have 0 choice beyond deciding which of those 2 paths to follow. Later it branches off, and some interesting things can be accomplished, but really there is nothing in the web that couldn't have been done in a branching tree system. When the game was first in CB I enjoyed the web so much more. From the start you could go in 4 different directions and things felt much more open. Now, the web's only purpose seems to be:
(a) punishing new players who don't know what path to follow and
(b) creating the illusion of choice and complexity on screen shots for new players to be impressed by and drawn in. A bait and switch

What exactly makes the skill web pointless from what you said?

The correct paths depend on the build. Some branches lead to different nodes which means there is different optimal paths for different builds.

There actually is a lot of choice and complexity in the tree, it's not an illusion. Anyone who has created their own build knows as much. Many builds will vary and optimal paths change depending on your focus. It gets more interesting when you're going beyond 95 points or so since you'll often be trading one benefit for another.

Perhaps 'pointless' was the wrong word.. how about.. superfluous? You don't need a web to do what this game wants you to do. This game doesn't want or reward originality or experimentation - if you look at 'success' as equating to something like 'being able to compete at high levels with other players who followed different paths' because the ability to fix mistakes is pretty painful - therefore, the web itself is misleading. It comes across to a new player as WOW LOOK AT ALL OF THE OPTIONS, a big sandbox of fun, but really its just a smoke screen.

Look at your example, 'once you have 95 points' it gets 'more interesting' - what a sales pitch!

Which is why this game is a prime of example where Freespecs would have been amazing even though it didnt work out in D3.

and its not like being able to freely respec is game breaking when changing builds means you need another set of gear worth, with all the effort gone into finding, buying, fusing, chroming, rolling armor, weapons, gems etc.

Witt, take me with you!

You'll be back for a short day or two, when Alt-F4 arrives.... ahem, I mean Alt-act4... crap I mean Act4.

Seriously though, sad to see all the oldies leaving. This game "had" so much potential...but they steered the ship right into an iceberg of RNG. Now the community probably has the same feeling that the passengers of the Titanic had when they realized the ship was going down.

Can't but agree with your feedback, Wittgenstein. On the skill web, the biggest problem I find is there's quite a few ways to skin a cat, but only one good way. Just as an example, in most caster builds I've looked at, if you're taking damage passives, crit > cast speed every god damn time, without even taking mana cost into consideration. Skilldrasil is neat in theory, but its implementation leaves much to be desired. Am looking forward to the 'lesser noob trap' changes.

I especially agree on resists. The game could do well with an open ended system with diminishing returns similar to Dark Souls, where the gap between low resists and high resists is far closer. Making them mandatory as PoE does is just... lazy, as you say. And boring. Really, I'd like to see an overhaul of all defensive mechanics to help move from "Path of Life Nodes", but I doubt that'll happen.

One thing. Desync. I think we can all deal with it. Little excuse for it to be as problematic as it is for a released game, though. I mean, really, if the game can't handle it, don't release Cyclone. It should have been sorted better before the game left beta.

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Kandamo wrote:

This game is making a nice profit, they wont change anything *SAD!*(they dont care that much because the game produces money as it is right now)

I think youre wrong man, I think they care deeply about the game and the players.



Its not as easy as just pushing a fix button though. What people complain about is often not what the problem they are having is. Its very hard to know what to change to fix a given set of feedback of the sort often posted here. Im talking generally here, not about Witts particular points or Witt at all.



An example is solo self found viability and gear walls through the game. some people have been playing for over a year and feel locked out of getting to lvl75 and playing maps, and they blame a lot of different factors for this. However...


Recently a D3 streamer called Moses played PoE for the first time and streamed his first character. He was playing solo, self found, self built just making it up as he went along and disregarding the majority of advice from his chat. His first char within a week was grinding lvl70 maps, a lvl82 witch now I believe? Took him 7 days coming from diablo 3 knowing absolutely nothing about the game to completely destroy this concept of self found viability for reaching endgame and competently playing it being broken.

another then started up, Fand is it? He was progressing slowly, taking the scenic route, within a few days hes already past the point a lot of people who claim the game is impossible without trade have managed in over a year. Both of them made it looks easy, and thats because if you do it right, it IS easy. These guys are ARPG vets, sure, but they knew nothing of poe, still know very little but are clearing content and progressing.


So how do you balance these problems people post? what are the actual problems? What is going wrong with players that they dont seem able to just walk through the game like other people? Is this a drop rate issue? Seems like its not, feels more like game knowledge issue to me. People getting stuck behind not understanding something, getting to a dead end with combinations of builds and items rather than not finding items that are capable of clearing the content they face. The answer to most of this feedback, I feel, is not to push the 'make game easier' button, in some regards its almost too easy atm. the solution is a far more elusive. They do care, too much to do something as rash and misguided as nerfing/buffing everything a player calls for.