Maybe time to have a good hard think of how economy centric design is fucking up an aRPG, huh?
The economy serves just as a punching back for all issues poe has.
That's it's job, from a diagnostic standpoint.
The economy is a microcosm for all other issues in the game. A healthy game has a healthy economy; an unhealthy game has an unhealthy economy.
The mistake, if there is one, is in confusing cause and effect; economy is the effect, not the cause. The players are the light, the game is the object, and the economy is the shadow. Other than a few minor tweaks, such as having a nice white background to cast a silhouette onto, the vast majority of methods of improving the shadow involve improving the object itself.
I'm a big fan of the economy when used as a diagnostic tool or as a means for player cooperation and competition — especially as a "catch-up" tool for time-limited players — but I honestly have no idea what "economy-centric design" would really even mean. You cannot cooperate without a common problem, compete without common rules, or catch up without someone else already in the lead; none of these things are ever core. Perhaps the aforementioned silhouette?
What Anuhart is saying is that too many decisions are being made to keep the economy 'in tact' at the expense of 'fun.' It may be fun to a minuscule portion of the population to grind hours upon hours for orbs and then flip and trade them for even more wealth, but for the vast majority of ARPG players the fun is in actually killing mobs with a character build you came up with.
It may be fun to a minuscule portion of the population to grind hours upon hours for orbs and then flip and trade them for even more wealth, but for the vast majority of ARPG players the fun is in actually killing mobs with a character build you came up with.
If that's how you think your average player defines "fun," then technically running Merci Docks over and over again is "fun." Your definition needs work.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
It may be fun to a minuscule portion of the population to grind hours upon hours for orbs and then flip and trade them for even more wealth, but for the vast majority of ARPG players the fun is in actually killing mobs with a character build you came up with.
If that's how you think your average player defines "fun," then technically running Merci Docks over and over again is "fun." Your definition needs work.
He forgot to include the word 'challenging' in front of "mobs". Grinding Docks and City of Sarn 24/7 is not challenging or rewarding. It just makes people feel like shit.
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Charan put this into motion, will be interesting to see how many more follow.
At least you provided feedback witt, good feedback even.
I agree just like with worldbreaker's recent post.
I hope you come and watch your ring in action do, it looks like a very interesting piece. Maybe chill for a bit and come play PoE a bit casually at lower levels with your designed unique? :)
Peace,
-Boem-
Countless left before him, how the hell did he put that in motion?
Also, like the other guy said (who also quit i think) GGG did.
Edit: Typos
Last edited by S3ph1r0th#1392 on Jun 30, 2014, 12:23:45 AM
It may be fun to a minuscule portion of the population to grind hours upon hours for orbs and then flip and trade them for even more wealth, but for the vast majority of ARPG players the fun is in actually killing mobs with a character build you came up with.
If that's how you think your average player defines "fun," then technically running Merci Docks over and over again is "fun." Your definition needs work.
He forgot to include the word 'challenging' in front of "mobs". Grinding Docks and City of Sarn 24/7 is not challenging or rewarding. It just makes people feel like shit.
I think that's part of it. However, that's not a very good method to convince players to perform a particular action. For example, running a Temple map with the -max resistances affix is challenging (and, in my experience, often turns out to be much more fun of a Piety fight than you might anticipate), but most players will through a Chaos at such a thing rather than risk it.
Give the average player the choice between that (fun!) Temple map and yet another (boring.) Merci Docks run, and they'll likely choose the Merci Docks run. Players don't seek challenge. They seek loot. However, this doesn't mean they don't want challenge. It simply means they want challenge to find them, rather than the other way around.
"
S3ph1r0th wrote:
Countless quitted before him
No one has ever performed such an action
Spoiler
because no one has "quitted" anything; they quit.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Jun 29, 2014, 11:40:30 PM
Mision accomplished by GGG, just look at all those forum tittles.
This game is making a nice profit, they wont change anything *SAD!*(they dont care that much because the game produces money as it is right now)
New content = more players = more money, then those players realize about that fucked up game balance that makes you want to quit and feel depressed because you threw money at GGg
old players who already spent money quit, then the excited new players come and buy their supporter packs, and BAM! mission accomplished again ggg let them get bored so they quit, so new excited players come and blablahblahblahblahbla etc etc until game dies in about 2 yrs
ggg doesnt give a fuck because they already made a profit out of players that already quit or are going to
You cannot cooperate without a common problem, compete without common rules, or catch up without someone else already in the lead; none of these things are ever core. Perhaps the aforementioned silhouette?
true but misleading.
the design of the system can emphasize this like crazy. for example...designing an overpowered boss map that drops a tool (guaranteed drop table) that makes the boss map itself much easier, as well as the rest of the game.
with that design, it accelerates the lead to a crazy amount.
What the hell is going on? All the old supporters are leaving in droves...
I agree with everything you said, Witt, and it's sad to see you go as one of the more level-headed posters of feedback on this forum. I should do my own feedback sometime soon I guess since it's been a while.
italic - question
bold - answer
sadly, people are opening their eyes. ive known it for some time, but i enjoy the 'gameplay' of poe so i stay. but i never recommend this game nor i think it is heading in a good direction.
it is a typical artificially prolonged rmt-bait f2p game that had a potential to be SO MUCH MORE..
the good part - for me - is that there are chances some other games shall learn on poe mistakes
Had a great time watching this game come together, and I would like to congratulate GGG on making one of the best games (for a time) that I've ever played. Sadly, however, the way this game is now shaping up is the antithesis to what I feel good games are.
1. The Orb system is a waste and a failure. Intended to replace the gold sinks built into games which become nothing more than meaningless treadmills for the player to allocate time to, it has become the shining example of how to make a meaningless treadmill. Whats worse though, is that at least with a gold sink all I have to do is grind gold, in PoE I have to grind various types of gold in the hopes of being blessed by the RNG Gods, which itself wouldn't be that bad if the RNG Gods of PoE weren't akin to the Old Testament God who seems to delight in the misery of its creation. I can grind for hours and hours and come away with *nothing* - and that is a horrible system.
2. Skill Web - is now pointless, our paths are dwindled down to 2 now and for the first... what, 20 levels or so, we really have 0 choice beyond deciding which of those 2 paths to follow. Later it branches off, and some interesting things can be accomplished, but really there is nothing in the web that couldn't have been done in a branching tree system. When the game was first in CB I enjoyed the web so much more. From the start you could go in 4 different directions and things felt much more open. Now, the web's only purpose seems to be:
(a) punishing new players who don't know what path to follow and
(b) creating the illusion of choice and complexity on screen shots for new players to be impressed by and drawn in. A bait and switch
3. Crafting - apart from my complaints specifically aimed at the acquiring of orbs in 1. I also hate using the orbs. Crafting isn't fun. It's just flipping coins over and over and over. Its cool if a game has some systems like that, but when the entire system is like that... just fuck off with it. I don't have time to sit behind a screen flipping coins over and over. The way you increase % in the game is great. I *really* wish more 'crafting' options were available that were like adding quality.
4. Resists - I understand that resists play a large role in many ARPG's, but in PoE they play much to great a role. It seems like a lazy way to fake difficulty, honestly.
There are many great things about the game. I'll be checking in on the forums from time to time and may come back to see the next big expansion, but barring major changes to the things I mention above, I simply cannot imagine myself every putting significant time into this game. Given that I invested over a grand into its development, I think it's very telling that I still don't want to play. Still, wish everyone at GGG the best.
*edit*
I want to point out that I didn't bring up desync. I can deal with desync. I can't deal with the general feeling that I am just wasting my time (beyond the typical feeling felt when playing games).
Perhaps we'll share ideas again somewhere and sometime.
farewell,for now.
=)
Last edited by Temper#7820 on Jun 30, 2014, 2:35:51 AM
Good feedback and the haters can jerk off to the thought that some top level supporters are "quitting" the game. Something tells me ya'll be back when 1.2.0 hits though :D
GGG banning all political discussion shortly after getting acquired by China is a weird coincidence.
