The most overused strawman on these forums: "RNG is RNG"

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Crackmonster wrote:

Then let us pretend that those i know who have quit for those reasons, that those i have seen give similar reasons on forums and other i have run into in other games discussing PoE didn't lose interest for that reason, let's pretend that didn't happen if it makes you happy.

"Let's pretend my anecdotal didn't happen"


As far as we know it didn't?

Anecdotal evidence is nice for bringing up topics for discussion, but it doesn't make a compelling or convincing argument in a debate. If you want to convince people you're going to need more then that.




Honestly the only one who has hard info is GGG. They know how many people are playing and how many people have stopped. They have seen the thread(even if they don't respond there's no way they've missed all of the 20 behemoths in the last week alone). Honestly I think it's pretty compelling evidence that we aren't hemorrhaging people like the whiners imply that there haven't been any improvements to drop rates or crafting in recent patches. If everyone were quitting, GGG would at the very least be making token changes to appease the masses. It's not like they take a hard line against making item acquisition easier- there have been 2-3 patches increasing fusing odds, and at least 2 patches increasing on facet or another of drop rates in the last 6 months- if everyone were quitting due to itemization We's have another boost by now.

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bilun wrote:

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Crackmonster wrote:

Then let us pretend that those i know who have quit for those reasons, that those i have seen give similar reasons on forums and other i have run into in other games discussing PoE didn't lose interest for that reason, let's pretend that didn't happen if it makes you happy.

"Let's pretend my anecdotal didn't happen"


As far as we know it didn't?

Anecdotal evidence is nice for bringing up topics for discussion, but it doesn't make a compelling or convincing argument in a debate. If you want to convince people you're going to need more then that.

This guy has soaked the first 30 well relaxed and thought through responses, not going to waste more time repeating an action that doesn't lead anywhere, that would be insanity.

I think you have your head inside the communities just as i do, i mean we all know people that play a variety of games, we talk to them we hear what they have to say. Most also know a bunch of people that played D2, i talk to them i try to convince them to come but i'll be damned if i can and really sometimes it's hard to just let go and chill in PoE so i understand that it can be hard to have an interest unless all you really want is the best ARPG like myself. Like information spreads on the internet and people react to that "collective memory" in their own way, but they generally react to that common subconscious understanding, and word on the webz is PoE is too heavy for play unless you are a really full on ARPG lover.

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Crackmonster wrote:

people leave claiming unrewarding drops isn't an opinion, but what it means to the game can be. I don't mean to say there is a flood of people, i just think it is a shame that most people that i know liked D2 thinks PoE is a bit too heavy. Maybe they are just raging spoiled kids. So i can't do anything else than accept you don't agree about it's meaning to the game, all i wanted to do was give some reasons why i thought one of the things i did.

Maybe you're familiar with the work of Malcolm Gladwell, maybe you're not. The point being: people who don't like PoE know very well they don't like PoE... and that's about it. You need to take their feedback with a grain of salt, because people who haven't yet been satisfied do not know what they want (or, at best, fail to articulate it with any degree of accuracy). If they did/could, they'd have it already! Following the advice of dissatisfied gamers will only lead a game to ruin; for reference, look at Diablo 3's decline since its original launch. ("You want more legendaries? Let's double it!")

Game design is an art which is substantially more complicated than playing a game and taking notes on things you like and things you don't.

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Crackmonster wrote:

Right now, the game is balanced around the permanent leagues, that really gives the best most complete experiences for the players who do not flip items or have an organized map group (the majority of players). Yet, i believe that ladders were the longevity of D2, and i hope PoE can go to a place where people who play a good 5-10h almost every day can complete 1-3 characters during a full ladder season. Ladder seasons have the power that they are constant economy resets, so it should be made so that things start being rather abundant near the 3½ month mark of a season so that as many players as possible can experience the fullness of completing their character during it.

Your idea of "complete" and mine are radically different; I'd consider half a dozen or more possible during the same time period. Not to say I'm right and you're wrong, just that "complete" is a word with different meanings to different people.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Spoiler

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Crackmonster wrote:

Let me examplify something i could have said to show you just how misleading your statements are. Something i have said before could have been:

I believe boosting unique drop rates would benefit the game. Here are some things i judge that from:

1. The amount of currency uniques are worth, and average farming hours it takes to acquire them.

2. The fact that they they are much easier to acquire than the topmost rares, which means you are not done farming for your character when you get them.

3. That uniques were far more common in D2, and that i and many many others, in fact he majority of D2 players i know(which is quite a few), large parts of the internet etc believe it created a good flow through the game.

4. That only those who play nonstop or trade has time to get 1-3 of the very expensive uniques on their build in short leagues, ie. the majority of the end-game potential is kept away from players.

5. That good long-time ARPG loving players are quitting because drops are not rewarding enough.

6. The reason it takes so long to get "there" in poe is because GGG knows that what is the most interesting is progression. But it is entirely possible that they lock players into long periods of near-no progression, instead of allowing people to reach reach a satisfying plague and reroll from satisfaction rather than frustration.

Of these points only 3 and 6 are subjective, but again your reponses has before been to this: Accept or GTFO. Which is useless. These forums are for discussions, and everyone has the right to say whatever they mean.

I happen to mean boosting unique droprates would be good for the game, deal with it.

I disagree with point #5. Strongly.

Increasing the amount of reward isn't going to retain players better; it's just going to make them blow through content faster. Do you remember what happened in Diablo 3 when they took the droprate of legendaries and doubled it? Nothing good; if anything, it hastened the game's downfall.

The trick is not to make slaying monsters more rewarding with drops. It's to make slaying monsters more rewarding in and of itself. Map affixes and monster affixes are key areas of focus here. Also skill design. Also soundtrack and artwork.

Also motherfucking desync.

Due to my disagreement with #5, I also disagree with #6 (being stuck in long periods of near-no progression shouldn't be that bad, if the monster-slaying itself is fun), and also #4 (making farming more enjoyable would mean players would trade less and farm more).

I don't know much about Diablo 3, but what I do know is that there are enough differences to PoE that one cannot really compare the two.

With D3's free respecs, the bland itemization, the boring uniques, the AH and the RMAH and whatever else, making the game more "rewarding" is the best way to make people see how its surface is much more fascinating than whatever lies beneath, that flashy stuff aside D3 may be just a really boring game.
With bad droprates people might still stay, being held by this one thin thread, which is that they really, really want that big dps-number or items [xyz].

But with PoE is is different. It is more complex, it has better build-diversity (with choice and consequence), better itemization, more interesting uniques, it is constantly changing, etc. etc.
And there are always open questions. There are probably not that many players who really know and understand every single mechanic.

So whatever actions were taken in D3, taking the same actions in PoE will not lead to the same result.

Also, there are the 4-months leagues. GGG seems to count on people regularly returning, not so much on a constant playerbase. People might leave when they are fed up itemwise, but wouldn't they come back to a fresh new league, with new items, a new balance and more content?

I really don't see the problem here: Give good items to casual players, give the best items to the die-hards. Everybody's happy.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Maybe you're familiar with the work of Malcolm Gladwell, maybe you're not. The point being: people who don't like PoE know very well they don't like PoE... and that's about it. You need to take their feedback with a grain of salt, because people who haven't yet been satisfied do not know what they want (or, at best, fail to articulate it with any degree of accuracy). If they did/could, they'd have it already! Following the advice of dissatisfied gamers will only lead a game to ruin; for reference, look at Diablo 3's decline since its original launch. ("You want more legendaries? Let's double it!")

Game design is an art which is substantially more complicated than playing a game and taking notes on things you like and things you don't.

Look, there is a world of difference between compensating for lack of content with uniques and increasing drops when they are too low, or even just discussing it. I've played and got uber disappointed with D3, these things are not news to me, they are things that are deep rooted in me.

No doubt it can be argued whether i take things too literally etc, as it could be for anyone, but i am not exactly new to the crooked ways of man either and i feel confident that i am not among the most naive of people to say the least.

You are making it a black and white situation, you see if the statement: "Following the advice of dissatisfied gamers will only lead a game to ruin" was true, then if we as an experiment create something so bad in the game we know everyone will not be satisfied, then we should disqualify their feelings and could conclude that doing someting we knew was bad created no negative associations. What that statement really should means is that you shouldn't listen to criers and people who view the negative side of things. In reality you must always weigh the two sides against each other, sometimes those who are dissatisfied have a point and sometimes things are best the way they are. That sometimes complaints can have a reasoned foundation is something a large part of this community appears not to comprehend.

I think lots of people around here have no idea just how rough a diamond PoE is, it is far from refined. Far from, it is a rough unwelcome environment for many, many that would like it if it wasn't for unneeded barriers, things that can be altered without ruining the game for those who don't mind if things aren't so polished. In addition many of the ways to control economies and the reward systems are not very smooth or well done, they are often "suffer for a month or more but on the right single day you can rejoice before suffering for long again with bad luck streaks", "because then you get fair rewards over time!!!"

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Your idea of "complete" and mine are radically different; I'd consider half a dozen or more possible during the same time period. Not to say I'm right and you're wrong, just that "complete" is a word with different meanings to different people.

Yes, i consider complete to use something that approaches the full range of item progression rather than the first 50%. What is your point? I have on purpose written complete due to the very meaning as being a whole, a full experience. I have already considered whether i should use that word, should use another, write a long explanation to explain my the meaning of complete to me, and probably tried all those ways before arriving here having learned that all those insecure explanations ruin the flow of consciousness in posts.

EDIT: And one more thing, about the video. That misunderstanding is the CORE misunderstanding of people around here. Everyone instantly assumes that as soon as someone mentions players that are turned away by the roughness of the game, that they think it is about making the game for casuals, broad appeal and that is it. They think that any mention of boosting any droprates is the cry of someone who wants everything on a silver platter. You probably know few persons that are as quality focused, anti-average/mass-media or walks their own path more than i do. That is what i do, i walk paths i know paths i see paths. That is why some people rise against you and others show you love, it is because you walk your own path with pride.

It is simply directly insulting to hear people tell me that i am the opposite, day in and day out. Yet, there is nothing i can do, you cannot blame people for what they do not know, certain words trigger certain associations and then people think not freely but let their preconceptions rule. I am not even going to give any examples as that will only clutter up my message.

What i lack in PoE is love. Care. There is too much roughness, too much top control and threatment of players like a statistic, and that is not visionary, which is what you wanted that video to tell me that my views on uniques etc were not.

EDIT2: And i will tell you a little secret just for you. People have not actually said that directly, i have read it from their reactions. :OOO didhe didhe, butbuthowcouldhethen claimto know .... wow, butif hedoesthen, i will just say thatpeople dontsay what theymean so, ifhe dontagreethen nothingcounts, hehihieh.

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Crackmonster wrote:

if the statement: "Following the advice of dissatisfied gamers will only lead a game to ruin" was true, then if we as an experiment create something so bad in the game we know everyone will not be satisfied, then we should disqualify their feelings and could conclude that doing someting we knew was bad created no negative associations. What that statement really should means is that you shouldn't listen to criers and people who view the negative side of things. In reality you must always weigh the two sides against each other, sometimes those who are dissatisfied have a point and sometimes things are best the way they are.

Um, no. The point of the video is: your average person — not a crier, not a fanboy, just people in general — will fail to properly report what they truly want when asked straight-up what they want. Which means: proper game design is not subject to any form of polling whatsoever, regardless of which factions you decide to listen to. It also means: most everything in the forums is shit from a GGG perspective. Including most of my posts.

Game design, in my view, is a craft where the expression of the artists is paramount. Relying too heavily on feedback is as silly for game designers as it is for music artists or film makers. At the very least, don't waste your time trying to tell an artist how to do their job; if you must suggest something, suggest something you'd like them to create, leaving them free to determine the method. (The only exception I can see to this are technical issues, such as FPS drops and desync; these are more science than art.)

Quality will bring following, just as success will bring fame. The object is not fame, but to walk the path that will lead to success, fame will follow naturally. You think i am obsessed with fame.


I am out of time to play humble, pretend to play young, while you grow up to one day realize that i have been waiting all along.

Follow your love of soul expression and you will find your place to be, where the essence flows thickly, and hopefully i still will be.

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Crackmonster wrote:

I think we both know that when someone says "RNG is RNG" in a topic of someone complaining that drop rates are set too low, then they intend to say something along the line of: "Do not blame RNG." So even though all they literally added was nothing except "X = X" which has no information, they did infact invisibly suggest more, an attack on a position different from the one suggested in the original first post.

Nothing is better than Eternal Happiness.

A cheeseburger is better than nothing.

Therefore, a cheeseburger is better than Eternal Happiness.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Crackmonster wrote:

people leave claiming unrewarding drops isn't an opinion, but what it means to the game can be. I don't mean to say there is a flood of people, i just think it is a shame that most people that i know liked D2 thinks PoE is a bit too heavy. Maybe they are just raging spoiled kids. So i can't do anything else than accept you don't agree about it's meaning to the game, all i wanted to do was give some reasons why i thought one of the things i did.

Maybe you're familiar with the work of Malcolm Gladwell, maybe you're not. The point being: people who don't like PoE know very well they don't like PoE... and that's about it. You need to take their feedback with a grain of salt, because people who haven't yet been satisfied do not know what they want (or, at best, fail to articulate it with any degree of accuracy). If they did/could, they'd have it already! Following the advice of dissatisfied gamers will only lead a game to ruin; for reference, look at Diablo 3's decline since its original launch. ("You want more legendaries? Let's double it!")

that would imply what it started as was *good* there was nothing good about the old legendary system.

it was garbage , and you of all people should know it was garbage.

the bloody things had random stats RANDOM on a bloody legendary. forget how rare their drop rate was, 99% of the time one would drop it would be with mods that made no god damn sense.

and the fact that they made legendaries more common was a necessity since they are backing off of the ah. you cant have shit drops and not have a trade economy. that combination right there IS a set up for ruin.

d3 is neither d2 or poe and using the same standards on it is foolish. It isnt even pretending to be in the same vein anymore. I suggest then that we stop trying to make it live up to some lofty expectations that it failed to live up to when it launched in the first place.

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Crackmonster wrote:

Quality will bring following, just as success will bring fame. The object is not fame, but to walk the path that will lead to success, fame will follow naturally. You think i am obsessed with fame.


I am out of time to play humble, pretend to play young, while you grow up to one day realize that i have been waiting all along.

Follow your love of soul expression and you will find your place to be, where the essence flows thickly, and hopefully i still will be.

It's undignified to resort to poetry when otherwise rendered speechless.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Spoiler

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Crackmonster wrote:

people leave claiming unrewarding drops isn't an opinion, but what it means to the game can be. I don't mean to say there is a flood of people, i just think it is a shame that most people that i know liked D2 thinks PoE is a bit too heavy. Maybe they are just raging spoiled kids. So i can't do anything else than accept you don't agree about it's meaning to the game, all i wanted to do was give some reasons why i thought one of the things i did.

Maybe you're familiar with the work of Malcolm Gladwell, maybe you're not. The point being: people who don't like PoE know very well they don't like PoE... and that's about it. You need to take their feedback with a grain of salt, because people who haven't yet been satisfied do not know what they want (or, at best, fail to articulate it with any degree of accuracy). If they did/could, they'd have it already! Following the advice of dissatisfied gamers will only lead a game to ruin; for reference, look at Diablo 3's decline since its original launch. ("You want more legendaries? Let's double it!")

that would imply what it started as was *good* there was nothing good about the old legendary system.

it was garbage , and you of all people should know it was garbage.

No doubt! Yet surely you must realize this has more to do with the art of game design than opinion polls. In hindsight, the Blizzard D3 team realizes player feedback was trying to say something other than its literal message. Which is my core point: player feedback will tell you something is wrong, but it won't tell you how to fix it.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

the fact that they made legendaries more common was a necessity since they are backing off of the ah.

We're talking patch 1.04 here, well before they ever dreamed of scrapping the AH.