GGG should probably address the player retention rate
"
abcnever wrote:
"
SL4Y3R wrote:
I would actually say RMT is a significant problem for 2 reasons. 1, being f2p allows for unlimited bots.
2, unlimited bots allows for cheaper prices. Thus, it's appeal to RMT is better for those players who maybe wouldn't have if orbs were more expensive.
I still think RMT should result in automatic bans.
unlimited bot will NOT allows for cheaper prices, there was a reason why lioneye's glare was once 25 - 30 exalted and kaom's heart was once 50 +. then after 1.5 months of Open Beta, lioneye dropped off to 5 - 10, and kaom's heart dropped to 30 - 40 after GGG re-enforced their no-bots policy. because exalts became harder to come by on the market without massive botting. high-end gears used to be literally only affordable if u RMT'ed.
Cheaper ORB prices via RMT sites. Not cheaper items
EDIT: Prices got cheaper, because more items entered the market.
Last edited by SL4Y3R#7487 on Jan 5, 2014, 1:40:07 PM
I learned some things from reading the responses in the thread and it has me wondering if GGG would be willing to host an open air forum (live chat?) to directly talk with us. It seems that a small portion of what was causing so many of my friends to quit in a cascade is that there is a lack of community feeling that they left to find elsewhere. Maybe host some community building events and ways to get us actively making a tight-knit community we can be proud to be part of. Its something I've seen in a lot of niche games, they know they don't have to many players so they end up doing everything they can to foster the strongest community they can.
Chatting in game feels hollow when it seems that everyone you meet will be gone within a week and you end up feeling like your playing a solo game. And it seems that there are unaired resentments and anger that we vent on each other because with no sense of community or permanence there is little holding us back from acting out in the worst ways we can get away with. And when all of your friends, everyone you chat to, everyone you party with and everyone you help are all gone then its sorta hard to not feel that resentment built up...
Overall it's been constructive I think to air out these feelings and would like to see where else this thread might go.
edit - I guess it is sorta hard to not get that 'grass is greener on the other side' feeling when watching my friends have fun in other multiplayer games......
Last edited by Jiero#2499 on Jan 5, 2014, 1:57:54 PM
Every single one of my friends that I grew up playing D2 all quit this game within a month, all cite shitty drop rates of uniques and good rares or frustration with socketing, linking, and coloring items for gems.
Every single one of my friends that I grew up playing D2 all quit this game within a month, all cite shitty drop rates of uniques and good rares or frustration with socketing, linking, and coloring items for gems.
violin/10
Diablo 2 was a bad game economy wise. There were minimal actions taken to to stop duped items so of course it was infinitely easier to acquire items. Why must people constantly compare one game to another just because its in the same genre?
Once again, no titles are stated; no meat to this statement. I really don't appreciate people who think they can make arbitrary claims and sit on some throne. Bring some fact or statements to the table. We can all be children and say that, "I'm right and you're wrong," all fucking day; there's no point in arguing unless you actually name names. I can back up why PoE stands above every game that came out in 2013, 2012, or 2011, with ease.
You can be critical of PoE all you want, but you can't name another F2P game that does it better than this. You also can't name another game quite like this in the industry just yet. Or at least, please let me know so I can start playing this game. It can be of any genre except sports or racing (I don't care for those).
If we're strictly talking F2P...
Lineage 2 - A much more hardcore RPG than Path of Exile by every stretch of the imagination despite atrocious netcode, it's still actually better than Path of Exile's. That's saying alot too considering Lineage 2 is an ancient game, almost as old as Diablo 2. The game gives no fucks about certain things, and is not even casual in the slightest. It's even more ultimate grindy/hardcore than Path of Exile. So if you really want a hardcore game, play L2 (especially since if you PK like a huge nerd you will pop like a pinata if you are too red). It's an excellent grind simulator, trade to progress simulator, or hardcore PVP with real consequences.
League of Legends - It may not be hardcore, but it certainly has a very good reputation for well executed concepts, and is wildly popular amongst the general population. And before you say League of Legends is a scrub game, some of the most successful DotA pros (ice3x, hyhy) have not been able to make a transition into League of Legends because it isn't as easy as you think.
DotA 2 - A much more hardcore/less forgiving version of League of Legends. Better than Path of Exile in alot of game design choices, mostly because the developer (IceFrog) understands that sacrificing entertainment/fun for the masses for the sake of a 'vision' is a completely stupid theory.
Planetside 2 - Very complex and very fun MMO shooter. Tactical, and reliant on good play with teammates. Zerging is an issue, but good teamwork can overcome Zerging 99% of the time.
World of Tanks - Haven't played it, but wildly popular and has a competitive scene in Korea.
Runescape - They must be doing something right if they retain and have more players than Path of Exile. Trololololololol. In all reality, Runescape is actually a legitimately decent game, especially considering the number of options and paths you have to take in said game. Recently it has been getting worse on P2Win features, but it's still decent enough to play through for a few weeks.
Tribes Ascend - Excellent remake, a few tweaks to the Tribes formula I don't agree with, but very much a strong contender in the F2P shooter category. Hard to learn for a new player, but very hardcore like Planetside 2 in terms of the skills and knowledge that you need to pick up to be successful.
Team Fortress 2 - Excellent formula, well executed, easy to learn, hard to master.
Quake Live - Classic Q3 Arena, considered the best 1v1 deathmatch game in the history of FPS games.
Tera Online - A slightly more casual version of L2, but still very fun and hilariously good PvP due to the combat system.
These are strictly F2P games. Yes a few of them have some P2W options, but most do not really affect you directly (except Planetside 2 and Tribes Ascend, but really the default weapons are better in most cases).
Here's what I don't appreciate. When Path of Exile whiteknights like you try to go out there and make Path of Exile look like the best F2P game by a country mile. It's not. It is not even close to the best game there is. You make Path of Exile like it is some revolutionary game in the F2P market. Sure, it's really good for a F2P game. I put it in my top 20 list, but it certainly isn't topping games like DotA 2, League of Legends, Tribes, Planetside 2, etc. anytime soon.
BTW, the list extends significantly if we're talking about P2P games. You made a fucking bold claim saying that Path of Exile is better than 99% of the games out there on the market, whether they are F2P or P2P. You can't just say shit like that and expect to get away with it.
And just to reiterate, here's exactly what you said
"
anubite wrote:
I might be a fan, but I'm not blind to the many problems this game has. I report - I've reported on them all the time. And even after all this time, many are still not fixed or even seemingly in the process of being fixed.
But PoE still stands head and shoudlers above most games today - if you doubt this statement, please bring out some titles or a meatier explanation for us to discuss. Anyway, this sad fact should be enough to suggest that the problem does stem from today's gaming population.
There's nothing wrong with the base game of PoE that should turn players away. It's everything you could expect from a game offering you a challenge. It could have more in-game information on stuff and lots of things can still be polished or improved, but the overwhelming fact is a majority of gamers today just play minecraft or Battlefield. If PoE doesn't fall under a similar genre or appeal, players don't have the patience or the skills to handle it.
Most condescending flame bait bullshit I've read in along time, and that's alot considering I've read shit from Slayers, Fruhz, and other POE defenders who repeatedly try to flame bait anyone who criticizes Path of Exile. So you're saying that Path of Exile is so good of a game, no one should turn it down, and that if you turn it down you're just some person that doesn't like hardcore games? That's a huge generalization and a huge fucking insult, especially considering some of us who criticize Path of Exile are more hardcore gamers than you ever will be.
And before you go ad homenining me into the ground about how I'm not a 'hardcore' or 'competitive' gamer, let me give you a short competitive background of myself.
Competitive Q3 player, played in multiple CPLs vs Zero4, Lexar from Russia, Fatality, etc.
Competitive CS player, played on GameWyze with F4nG, Mason, Warden, etc.
Considered one of the top duelists (1v1) in Lineage 2, had top end gear when I was playing from Prelude to Chronicle 4. So yes, this means that I have grinded more gear/exp than you ever have. Anyone that has played L2 can attest to that.
Currently 5k MMR in DotA 2, similar MMR to various North American pros in DotA 2.
I don't mean to post my e-penis resume, but the shit you just posted ticked alot of people off that I would consider 'hardcore' gamers, but certainly do not like certain aspects of Path of Exile.
Q3 or DOTA are totally different games from PoE. Maybe there's some hyperbole caught up in my language, but the point I was making was this: If you're hardcore, if you can play Quake at a competitive level, you're probably smart enough and devoted enough to games to be able to play PoE. It doesn't matter if you like it or not. You're probably the kind of person who likes to take a new game, pick it apart, and beat it for the challenge. You won't just give up on the game in 30 minutes or less and you won't be beaten by Normal difficulty.
Whether you end up sticking with PoE or liking it is another story. I played LoL for about a year - grew to hate it - but I delved into the mechanics and explored the game because I consider myself to be that kind of consumer of games. I'm the kind of person PoE is targeting. It's got little to do with the fact that "All Good Pro Gamers Should Like PoE" - that isn't the point I was making. Not everybody can like everything.
If you're willing to give PoE a chance and have the dexterity and mental acuity to make it through this game, you're in less than 1% of gamers. If you LIKE this game after thoroughly exploring it, you're probably in less than 0.5% of gamers, because let's face it, some people prefer fast-paced games like Quake or UT to something more statistical based than an RPG.
Someone whose library of games they consume consists of Gone Home, Minecraft, Bioshock Infinite and Battlefield 4 probably doesn't have the patience or maturity to appreicate a game like this. It's that simple. To them, they will say, "What's the point? Why would I want to grind?" Or, they might say, "Wow, this game is so slow paced." They might even say, "Gosh, where's the story?" Maybe they have the potential to be good at this game, but they aren't the target audience, so GGG shouldn't target them as a demographic - they should not change the game to appeal to these people. If you actually read my post again, you might notice that this is my main point. It's why I bring up SWG.
Star Wars Galaxies was an MMO that couldn't compete with WoW. Sony said to the developers, "This game is not appealing to a large enough audience! Our subscriptions are declining! Quick, figure out how we can appeal to a wider audience!" And so they completely changed the game to appeal to a less mature audience and then EVERYBODY left the game in the span of a couple months as a result. Nobody wanted to play the game, at that point, and the game died on the spot.
My Keystone Ideas: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/744282
Last edited by anubite#0701 on Jan 5, 2014, 3:59:20 PM
Once again, no titles are stated; no meat to this statement. I really don't appreciate people who think they can make arbitrary claims and sit on some throne. Bring some fact or statements to the table. We can all be children and say that, "I'm right and you're wrong," all fucking day; there's no point in arguing unless you actually name names. I can back up why PoE stands above every game that came out in 2013, 2012, or 2011, with ease.
You can be critical of PoE all you want, but you can't name another F2P game that does it better than this. You also can't name another game quite like this in the industry just yet. Or at least, please let me know so I can start playing this game. It can be of any genre except sports or racing (I don't care for those).
If we're strictly talking F2P...
Lineage 2 - A much more hardcore RPG than Path of Exile by every stretch of the imagination despite atrocious netcode, it's still actually better than Path of Exile's. That's saying alot too considering Lineage 2 is an ancient game, almost as old as Diablo 2. The game gives no fucks about certain things, and is not even casual in the slightest. It's even more ultimate grindy/hardcore than Path of Exile. So if you really want a hardcore game, play L2 (especially since if you PK like a huge nerd you will pop like a pinata if you are too red). It's an excellent grind simulator, trade to progress simulator, or hardcore PVP with real consequences.
League of Legends - It may not be hardcore, but it certainly has a very good reputation for well executed concepts, and is wildly popular amongst the general population. And before you say League of Legends is a scrub game, some of the most successful DotA pros (ice3x, hyhy) have not been able to make a transition into League of Legends because it isn't as easy as you think.
DotA 2 - A much more hardcore/less forgiving version of League of Legends. Better than Path of Exile in alot of game design choices, mostly because the developer (IceFrog) understands that sacrificing entertainment/fun for the masses for the sake of a 'vision' is a completely stupid theory.
Planetside 2 - Very complex and very fun MMO shooter. Tactical, and reliant on good play with teammates. Zerging is an issue, but good teamwork can overcome Zerging 99% of the time.
World of Tanks - Haven't played it, but wildly popular and has a competitive scene in Korea.
Runescape - They must be doing something right if they retain and have more players than Path of Exile. Trololololololol. In all reality, Runescape is actually a legitimately decent game, especially considering the number of options and paths you have to take in said game. Recently it has been getting worse on P2Win features, but it's still decent enough to play through for a few weeks.
Tribes Ascend - Excellent remake, a few tweaks to the Tribes formula I don't agree with, but very much a strong contender in the F2P shooter category. Hard to learn for a new player, but very hardcore like Planetside 2 in terms of the skills and knowledge that you need to pick up to be successful.
Team Fortress 2 - Excellent formula, well executed, easy to learn, hard to master.
Quake Live - Classic Q3 Arena, considered the best 1v1 deathmatch game in the history of FPS games.
Tera Online - A slightly more casual version of L2, but still very fun and hilariously good PvP due to the combat system.
These are strictly F2P games. Yes a few of them have some P2W options, but most do not really affect you directly (except Planetside 2 and Tribes Ascend, but really the default weapons are better in most cases).
Here's what I don't appreciate. When Path of Exile whiteknights like you try to go out there and make Path of Exile look like the best F2P game by a country mile. It's not. It is not even close to the best game there is. You make Path of Exile like it is some revolutionary game in the F2P market. Sure, it's really good for a F2P game. I put it in my top 20 list, but it certainly isn't topping games like DotA 2, League of Legends, Tribes, Planetside 2, etc. anytime soon.
BTW, the list extends significantly if we're talking about P2P games. You made a fucking bold claim saying that Path of Exile is better than 99% of the games out there on the market, whether they are F2P or P2P. You can't just say shit like that and expect to get away with it.
And just to reiterate, here's exactly what you said
"
anubite wrote:
I might be a fan, but I'm not blind to the many problems this game has. I report - I've reported on them all the time. And even after all this time, many are still not fixed or even seemingly in the process of being fixed.
But PoE still stands head and shoudlers above most games today - if you doubt this statement, please bring out some titles or a meatier explanation for us to discuss. Anyway, this sad fact should be enough to suggest that the problem does stem from today's gaming population.
There's nothing wrong with the base game of PoE that should turn players away. It's everything you could expect from a game offering you a challenge. It could have more in-game information on stuff and lots of things can still be polished or improved, but the overwhelming fact is a majority of gamers today just play minecraft or Battlefield. If PoE doesn't fall under a similar genre or appeal, players don't have the patience or the skills to handle it.
Most condescending flame bait bullshit I've read in along time, and that's alot considering I've read shit from Slayers, Fruhz, and other POE defenders who repeatedly try to flame bait anyone who criticizes Path of Exile. So you're saying that Path of Exile is so good of a game, no one should turn it down, and that if you turn it down you're just some person that doesn't like hardcore games? That's a huge generalization and a huge fucking insult, especially considering some of us who criticize Path of Exile are more hardcore gamers than you ever will be.
And before you go ad homenining me into the ground about how I'm not a 'hardcore' or 'competitive' gamer, let me give you a short competitive background of myself.
Competitive Q3 player, played in multiple CPLs vs Zero4, Lexar from Russia, Fatality, etc.
Competitive CS player, played on GameWyze with F4nG, Mason, Warden, etc.
Considered one of the top duelists (1v1) in Lineage 2, had top end gear when I was playing from Prelude to Chronicle 4. So yes, this means that I have grinded more gear/exp than you ever have. Anyone that has played L2 can attest to that.
Currently 5k MMR in DotA 2, similar MMR to various North American pros in DotA 2.
I don't mean to post my e-penis resume, but the shit you just posted ticked alot of people off that I would consider 'hardcore' gamers, but certainly do not like certain aspects of Path of Exile.
Q3 or DOTA are totally different games from PoE. Maybe there's some hyperbole caught up in my language, but the point I was making was this: If you're hardcore, if you can play Quake at a competitive level, you're probably smart enough and devoted enough to games to be able to play PoE. It doesn't matter if you like it or not. You're probably the kind of person who likes to take a new game, pick it apart, and beat it for the challenge. You won't just give up on the game in 30 minutes or less and you won't be beaten by Normal difficulty.
Whether you end up sticking with PoE or liking it is another story. I played LoL for about a year - grew to hate it - but I delved into the mechanics and explored the game because I consider myself to be that kind of consumer of games. I'm the kind of person PoE is targeting. It's got little to do with the fact that "All Good Pro Gamers Should Like PoE" - that isn't the point I was making. Not everybody can like everything.
If you're willing to give PoE a chance and have the dexterity and mental acuity to make it through this game, you're in less than 1% of gamers. If you LIKE this game after thoroughly exploring it, you're probably in less than 0.5% of gamers, because let's face it, some people prefer fast-paced games like Quake or UT to something more statistical based than an RPG.
Someone whose library of games they consume consists of Gone Home, Minecraft, Bioshock Infinite and Battlefield 4 probably doesn't have the patience or maturity to appreicate a game like this. It's that simple. To them, they will say, "What's the point? Why would I want to grind?" Or, they might say, "Wow, this game is so slow paced." They might even say, "Gosh, where's the story?" Maybe they have the potential to be good at this game, but they aren't the target audience, so GGG shouldn't target them as a demographic - they should not change the game to appeal to these people. If you actually read my post again, you might notice that this is my main point. It's why I bring up SWG.
Star Wars Galaxies was an MMO that couldn't compete with WoW. Sony said to the developers, "This game is not appealing to a large enough audience! Our subscriptions are declining! Quick, figure out how we can appeal to a wider audience!" And so they completely changed the game to appeal to a less mature audience and then EVERYBODY left the game in the span of a couple months as a result. Nobody wanted to play the game, at that point, and the game died on the spot.
The reason why SWG declined really had nothing to do with combat upgrade. It had everything to do with the fact that the game was buggy as fuck, and was severely hurting already due to superior options. Sony made a last ditch effort with CU to save the game, but at that point it was already too late, and they just added insult to injury by turning off the hardcore fanbase.
As good as SWG was, it still couldn't compete with the likes of Shadowbane, WoW, UO, etc. which were clearly just better games.
In all reality, CU fixed alot of the nonsense that SWG had. Most of the professions/"classes" so to speak were completely broken. Half the shit didn't even work. CU actually helped subscription levels rise because it made SWG into a halfway playable game where shit actually worked. By the time NGE rolled around, the game was already on its way down and was pretty much dead. NGE was complete garbage, but don't be mistaken. The game was actually losing alot of its value prior to NGE, its just NGE was the nail in the coffin.
Last edited by allbusiness#6050 on Jan 5, 2014, 4:39:24 PM
The reason why SWG declined really had nothing to do with combat upgrade. It had everything to do with the fact that the game was buggy as fuck, and was severely hurting already due to superior options. Sony made a last ditch effort with CU to save the game, but at that point it was already too late, and they just added insult to injury by turning off the hardcore fanbase.
As good as SWG was, it still couldn't compete with the likes of Shadowbane, WoW, UO, etc. which were clearly just better games.
Beyond that it was sony online entertainment, who has a rep about as good as EA, there was also the bad taste left behind when the expansion pack they just sold was completely removed (and all of the others as well) from the game when it was dumbed down against all complaints of the remaining subscribers... who they then went on to mock and insult...
They had a tightly knit loyal community and went really far out of their way to make sure they left to get another one who ended up being made of people who never would've joined anyway.....
Company behavior like this is the reason why so many mmorpgs fail or end up crashing and burning... with so many going f2p and STILL failing hard....
Last edited by Jiero#2499 on Jan 5, 2014, 4:45:28 PM
The reason why SWG declined really had nothing to do with combat upgrade. It had everything to do with the fact that the game was buggy as fuck, and was severely hurting already due to superior options. Sony made a last ditch effort with CU to save the game, but at that point it was already too late, and they just added insult to injury by turning off the hardcore fanbase.
As good as SWG was, it still couldn't compete with the likes of Shadowbane, WoW, UO, etc. which were clearly just better games.
Beyond that it was sony online entertainment, who has a rep about as good as EA, there was also the bad taste left behind when the expansion pack they just sold was completely removed (and all of the others as well) from the game when it was dumbed down against all complaints of the remaining subscribers... who they then went on to mock and insult...
In all reality CU actually saved SWG for a few months and kept it afloat until NGE. NGE was a response to bleeding subs at a rapid rate. You can't blame SOE for trying to revamp their game when they invested so much into the game. Remember, SWG originally had a five year life span, and lasted a whole lot longer than that.
I think Sony was losing something like 10k subs a month, which is ridiculous. And really, in all reality, NGE as bad as an update it was to hardcore players, managed to keep the game afloat for another five years. Yes, I certainly didn't like it, and it certainly ruined the game for me, but to say the game 'flat out died' is completely false, especially when SWG didn't shutdown until 2011, and that's with WoW basically crushing the competition left and right.
And truly, the real reason why people quit was because SOE gave 0 heads up that NGE was coming. Like, literally. Nothing. Zero. Nada.
Last edited by allbusiness#6050 on Jan 5, 2014, 4:52:53 PM
If you're willing to give PoE a chance and have the dexterity and mental acuity to make it through this game, you're in less than 1% of gamers. If you LIKE this game after thoroughly exploring it, you're probably in less than 0.5% of gamers, because let's face it, some people prefer fast-paced games like Quake or UT to something more statistical based than an RPG.
Someone whose library of games they consume consists of Gone Home, Minecraft, Bioshock Infinite and Battlefield 4 probably doesn't have the patience or maturity to appreicate a game like this. It's that simple. To them, they will say, "What's the point? Why would I want to grind?" Or, they might say, "Wow, this game is so slow paced." They might even say, "Gosh, where's the story?" Maybe they have the potential to be good at this game, but they aren't the target audience, so GGG shouldn't target them as a demographic - they should not change the game to appeal to these people. If you actually read my post again, you might notice that this is my main point. It's why I bring up SWG.
get off the high horse
these underlined phrases are total bs. it is obvious that you have some superiority/inferiority issue but please keep it under control. statements youve made in this thread are absolutely over the top and have nothing in common with reality
and again: this game requires ZERO skill. 99% of the time you do the grind and grind alone. skill? people play this while watching tv. why do you think i play windowed? so i can read a newspaper!
if poe was skill based 'competitive' leagues would not revolve around RNG and time-spent. 1week race is all about time-spent, rng-drops (maps) and trade. skill? dont think so. same goes for entire challenge seasons - participate in most of them. congrats! scenario to beat (or place) in races can be summarized on one A4 sheet. add in some RNG (MS boots on vendor, quicksilver flask - congrats, youve won!) and you have it - 'skill'.
Last edited by sidtherat#1310 on Jan 5, 2014, 5:07:05 PM
Sidtherat is completely correct. It is funny that the same people continue to defend GGG in certain regards. Most of the time they are either known GGG fanbois, Alpha members or forum moderators. It is just laughable. I don't want people to think that I am grouping all the alpha members together, most of them are very, very level headed and have legitimate concerns that they have addressed with GGG.
