Path of life nodes

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Fruz wrote:

Now, let's take the same case 60 levels later.

You have 2000 HPs.
You equip those 2 pieces of junk, which bumps yout life to ... 2100.

You just increased your life pool by .. 5%.

Which means that it will make like no ( or not much ) difference in term of survability, in term of efficiency, on how much more time will mobs need to kill you.

It's not always true. I'm leveling at the moment CI melee Scion. She is @ 67 now, with only 2,3K HP as I want to save on respec point. Not much ar/eva but 4 EC and capped reses. She died 3 times: 1 time from Thena Mogana - with only 1% regen and negative chaos res I had no chances to cast town portal scroll, some HP more will not saved her, 2 and 3 was from Kole and off screen charge of rare bone rhoa in Library. If she had more life, like 2,5K - 2,8K she would have more chance, because having IC on CwDT, it would chance to work and give me second to escape in those two latter cases.

So, the problem in PoE is, that due to how resist/ar/eva works, you anyway have to reach suitable buffer threshold. Until this threshold is reached, there is no unneeded life nodes or life rolls.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

I am not speaking of how each point of AR gives you less % of "resists" if you compare it a set lower amount of AR, It's that each point gives the same EHP regrade-less of how much you have.

We are all talking about efficiency and scaling, because that's the only thing that matters in game, you may get the same EHP, the first ones are more efficient.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

Even then resists scale weird because at 100% resist you take infinite amounts of damage because your immune to that type of damage. So assuming it works like a static increase like hp is pointless because resists simply do not work that way.

dafaq ?
We're talking about HP ( only HP here, physical/magical DR needs to be taken accordingly and to the cap for magical for obvious reason, but that's not the point here ), and what do you bring ? 100%resist ? At what game are you actually playing ? infinite amounts because of immunity ? what the hell seriously ?

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tmaciak wrote:

It's not always true. I'm leveling at the moment CI melee Scion. She is @ 67 now, with only 2,3K HP as I want to save on respec point. Not much ar/eva but 4 EC and capped reses. She died 3 times: 1 time from Thena Mogana - with only 1% regen and negative chaos res I had no chances to cast town portal scroll, some HP more will not saved her, 2 and 3 was from Kole and off screen charge of rare bone rhoa in Library. If she had more life, like 2,5K - 2,8K she would have more chance, because having IC on CwDT, it would chance to work and give me second to escape in those two latter cases.

that's why I mentionned "some almost-unforgiving blows", you need to reach a certain threshold to avoid some types of death ( especially with desync/lag issues i.e.).
Nonetheless, he first life nodes will make your life much easier against basically everything, where are the last ones to reach this threshold will only help against big spikes/niche situations, but that happens sooner or later anyway.

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Fruz wrote:

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RagnarokChu wrote:

I am not speaking of how each point of AR gives you less % of "resists" if you compare it a set lower amount of AR, It's that each point gives the same EHP regrade-less of how much you have.

We are all talking about efficiency and scaling, because that's the only thing that matters in game, you may get the same EHP, the first ones are more efficient.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

Even then resists scale weird because at 100% resist you take infinite amounts of damage because your immune to that type of damage. So assuming it works like a static increase like hp is pointless because resists simply do not work that way.

dafaq ?
We're talking about HP ( only HP here, physical/magical DR needs to be taken accordingly and to the cap for magical for obvious reason, but that's not the point here ), and what do you bring ? 100%resist ? At what game are you actually playing ? infinite amounts because of immunity ? what the hell seriously ?

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tmaciak wrote:

It's not always true. I'm leveling at the moment CI melee Scion. She is @ 67 now, with only 2,3K HP as I want to save on respec point. Not much ar/eva but 4 EC and capped reses. She died 3 times: 1 time from Thena Mogana - with only 1% regen and negative chaos res I had no chances to cast town portal scroll, some HP more will not saved her, 2 and 3 was from Kole and off screen charge of rare bone rhoa in Library. If she had more life, like 2,5K - 2,8K she would have more chance, because having IC on CwDT, it would chance to work and give me second to escape in those two latter cases.

that's why I mentionned "some almost-unforgiving blows", you need to reach a certain threshold to avoid some types of death ( especially with desync/lag issues i.e.).
Nonetheless, he first life nodes will make your life much easier against basically everything, where are the last ones to reach this threshold will only help against big spikes/niche situations, but that happens sooner or later anyway.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5149150485

Here's a popular post in D3 explaining how it's a myth for both Armour and resist in D3.

This might explain it to you guys better.

You are reaaally missing something imho if you compare a flat health value ( even increased by a x% node, this will still lead to a flat health pool value ) and %reduction such as how magic res works in PoE.

I suggest that you re-read the whole thing.

And I'm not interested in D3 at all, even though basic mathematical are surely used in both cases.

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Fruz wrote:

You are reaaally missing something imho if you compare a flat health value ( even increased by a x% node, this will still lead to a flat health pool value ) and %reduction such as how magic res works in PoE.

I suggest that you re-read the whole thing.

And I'm not interested in D3 at all, even though basic mathematical are surely used in both cases.

Do you even read my post? I literally stated that using HP is pointless because resist/Armour work completely differently then HP then your going to insist that even using x% node which theoretically in EHP gives you the same amount per point which is similar to armour/resists (because the only similarity is the increase in EHP it may give you).



And then again I'm going to reinstate my point, AR in D3 does not give diminishing returns on EHP. That is not why D3 system is better/different from Path. Feel free to argue the actual fucking D3 thread itself. Intellectuals who apparently think they know their stuff need to re-consider themselves.

using HP is pointless ?
You should be more careful about what you say, because like this, this is just plai nwrong ( as anybody knows this ).


Magic resits are out of the question here anyway because one needs them capped in end-game not to get destroyed, therefore everyone does cap them, it's not a question of having them or not, it's a prerequisite.



Now we can use armor to calculate EHP, thing is : it all depends on the power of the hit you are taking so .... this is pretty much useless.
Armour is PoE has diminishing returns.


The fact that EHP stacking is more efficient for the beginning of it because it drastically increase your survability remains ( and because of gear checks as well ).
I'm talking about HP from the start, because EHP in PoE doesn't really work the same as any other game most-likely ( well, purely technically, it does, but the way damage reduction works is not the same since incoming damage is taken in consideration for it ).


PoE's magic resist system is one of the dumbest ever imho, it is only good to set gear checks, that's basically all.


EDIT : if you didn't get it yet : THIS AIN'T D3.
:/
No one cares about D3, you can take D3 calculations if that pleases you but this is PoE, and armour stacking definitely has diminishing returns.
Serious screw that, D3 is one game, PoE is another, if you wanna talk about D3, go on D3's forum.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

You are reaaally missing something imho if you compare a flat health value ( even increased by a x% node, this will still lead to a flat health pool value ) and %reduction such as how magic res works in PoE.

I suggest that you re-read the whole thing.

And I'm not interested in D3 at all, even though basic mathematical are surely used in both cases.

Do you even read my post? I literally stated that using HP is pointless because resist/Armour work completely differently then HP then your going to insist that even using x% node which theoretically in EHP gives you the same amount per point which is similar to armour/resists (because the only similarity is the increase in EHP it may give you).

Spoiler

You don't calculate each separate instance of increased hp from one another.

If you have 1000 HP and have 50% hp increase, you'll gain 50% EHP.

If you have 1000 HP and you take 100% increase, you'll gain 100% EHP.

If you have 1000 HP and take a 200% increase and have 3000 health you gained 2000 or 200% EHP.

dafaq? >Even then resists scale weird because at 100% resist you take infinite amounts of damage because your immune to that type of damage. So assuming it works like a static increase like hp is pointless because resists simply do not work that way. <dafaq?

You use an HP example when we are talking about resist and I attempt to explain to you that you HP example is incorrect and doesn't apply but the same concept of diminishing returns is false.>I am not speaking of how each point of AR gives you less % of "resists" if you compare it a set lower amount of AR, It's that each point gives the same EHP regrade-less of how much you have.

And then again I'm going to reinstate my point, AR in D3 does not give diminishing returns on EHP. That is not why D3 system is better/different from Path. Feel free to argue the actual fucking D3 thread itself. Intellectuals who apparently think they know their stuff need to re-consider themselves.

Jesus fuck this is embarrassing

AR in D3 gives diminishing returns on the reduction%, which gives it a linear increase in EHP.

In PoE, MR gives you increasing returns on the reduction%, which means it gives a polynomial increase in EHP

Learn the god damn difference between EHP and reduction, or gtfo of this thread. Also quote from that thread

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Regardless, if you read the math and understood it, you would realize that this is not a myth, that your operation of dividing 70/45 is not correct and thus not even relevant to the discussion. It's also possible that you are providing incorrect figures for some other reason. They way damage reduction works is not debatable, though the way armor stacking mechanics works is often unclear.

And

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What I just read is this. Armor [and resistances] have diminishing returns.

I also think that you've misinterpreted what diminishing returns means. It means that as you gain more of one stat [lets say armor] that it becomes less effective when compared to other stats that give damage reduction. What you are assuming is this. Diminishing returns make armor less effective over-all. Which, like you have proven, isn't true.

This essentially means that the way to get the most total damage reduction is to stack your damage reduction stats equally.

Stop embarrassing yourself. These are mathematical formulas, they are set in god damn stone, what they do is not debatable, and the only reason we are pointlessly arguing about this is because you keep on confusing EHP with HP and with reduction

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RagnarokChu wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

me neither.

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RagnarokChu wrote:

We aren't talking about static numbers we are talking about scaling numbers.

If you had 8% increase life at 200 health you'll gain the exact amount of EHP at 200 or 2000.

This is the exact same thing, if you have 1000 HP and 0% increased HP, taking a 50% increase ( with nodes ) will give you 500 HP, meaning that monsters will need 50% more time to kill you.

If you have already 150%increased HP and add 50%, you will go from 2500 to 3000, you still get 500 HP but it only means 500/3000 = 17%of your life, monsters will need 17% more time to kill you.

In the first case, it makes much more of a difference, and matters more as stated previously.

This is why, in term of efficiency, you need a lot of life in most of the cases, but past some point, you can afford something else ( and because of some almost-unforgiving blows as well ).

You don't calculate each separate instance of increased hp from one another.

If you have 1000 HP and have 50% hp increase, you'll gain 50% EHP.

If you have 1000 HP and you take 100% increase, you'll gain 100% EHP.

If you have 1000 HP and take a 200% increase and have 3000 health you gained 2000 or 200% EHP.

Even then resists scale weird because at 100% resist you take infinite amounts of damage because your immune to that type of damage. So assuming it works like a static increase like hp is pointless because resists simply do not work that way.

I am not speaking of how each point of AR gives you less % of "resists" if you compare it a set lower amount of AR, It's that each point gives the same EHP regrade-less of how much you have.

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Theres obviously DR in relation to damage reduction but linear in relation to EH, this is the same thing as in wow, this is nothing new, this was news back in wow vanilla I guess.

Im not sure about you, but the difference between linear (D3) and polynomial (PoE) increase in EHP is ridiculous

Let me spell that out for you, since it seems like I am educating someone from kindergarten

One is a straight line (linear)

The other is a curve that keeps on increasing and increasing (polynomial)

So you are telling me, there is no difference between these two?

Wonderful debate and all that. I can see where the purists are coming from and also where the provocateur is coming from.

That being said, aren't you all actually agreeing - but where you disagree is on its relevance?

The whole concept of whether HP nodes provide diminishing returns or the same absolute benefit is moot unless we consider whether monster damage (and hence survivability) also scales in a linear or non linear way?

This debate is all about survivability, and monster damage is the flip side to the survivability coin.

So, does monster damage scale linearly through the game? I don't think so.

P.

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mrpetrov wrote:

That being said, aren't you all actually agreeing - but where you disagree is on its relevance?
P.

No, because the difference between linear reduction and polynomial reduction is massive. Linear reduction means its much easier to control how much damage you will roughly take, which means its easier to balance around it.

Polynomial reduction means that the difference between resistances, particularly when you get to the upper section of the curve (i.e. >40%), is enormous, which means that in regards to balance, the devs either have to accept build diversity at the cost of anyone capping resists becoming practically immune to elemental damage, or giving gigantic values on elemental damage on the premise that people will cap resistances (hint: the latter is whats happening)

Which is why dominus map version is doing something like 8k+ in damage with his touch of god

Which conclusively is one of the reasons that HP is so required